Locktimes, Rem. 700 VS Win. 70
I have a friend who feels the Win. model 70 has a faster lock time then the Rem. 700, I don't want to get in a heated argument over the matter, but I would like facts and figures. Does anybody know the lock time speeds of the Win. model 70 compared to the Rem. model 700 and Rem. 722. Thanks, "ShellShucker"
"Quench not the Spirit"
"Quench not the Spirit"
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remington 788 beats them all. 0 -
Cody I've heard that too for many years but I've often wondered what the facts are. You know something tangible that relates to numbers so action lock times could be ranked. If you have a source I want in on it.
Thanks
Snellstrom0 -
Lock Time is one of the last things to be considered in building any custom rifle. First of all,..once the factory pin and spring is replaced with a Tubbs system,..then they more than likely will both be almost identical. Factory pins and springs are not even a consideration as the rifle will be completely altered before it ever makes it to the firing line. Lock time speeds can not be accurately quantified for any make or model. the fact is that there are so many factors inside the bolt housing which affect lock time,..each and every rifle is different. The safety can drag slightly slowing lock time. the spring can be too long and actually bind in the bolt housing. There can be brass shavings in the spring coils or caught agains a roll pin protrusion inside the bolt body which have worked their way through the ejector or firing pin holes. Springs that are the same length can even have different lock times depending on wether the gun is stored with the firing pin cocked and therefore the firing pin spring is compressed for 99% of it's lifetime causing it to slow down considerably.
Barrels and stocks as well as triggers and action "trueing" all hold a far greater level of effect on a custom rifle than any firing pin assembly ever will. As a matter of fact,..I would bet that probably 50% of the guys on the circuit don't even change the spring and pin from factory. I have a few competition guns with factory springs and pins. I have the smith check the safety and stone it down to avoid any drag,..as well as decide if the spring is too long and needs to be cut back a coil or two to make it sit straighter in the housing.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
SS, I think that the 700 is faster. The 788 is faster than both.
There was an article in the Rifleman, I believe, some years ago where the calculations for determining lock time were explained and shown, but I don't remember how it was done.
OleDuk[:)][:)]0 -
This material is not easy to find in your average textbook... but here is some information anyway:
From: bartb@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Subject: Re: lock times?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
john cummings (cumminj@clemson.clemson.edu) wrote:
: Does anyone have any info on modern rifle trigger lock times?
First, understand that lock time is how long it is between the trigger
sear's disengagement and when the firing pin strikes the primer's cup.
Custom triggers oft times reduce lock time as they have lighter-weight
sear pieces or other moving parts whose mass can slow down lock times.
Winchester M70s have about .003 second, or 3 millisecond (ms) lock times with
their standard 23-pound firing pin spring. A 30-pound spring reduces that
to about 2.3 ms. With a titanium firing pin, lock time goes down to about
1.8 ms. These numbers are for the long actions; the new short actions have
lock times about 15% less due to their shorter firing pin being lighter.
Remington's M700 rifles have about a 2.5 ms lock time with their 26-lb.
firing pin spring. A 32-lb. spring takes that down to about 2 ms and the
addition of a titanium firing pin get it to about 1.6 ms. Again, these
are for the long actions; short ones have about 15% less lock time.
Ruger M77s have about 3.4 ms lock time and I don't know of anybody making
stronger firing pin springs for these long actions. I would guess short
actions would have slightly shorter lock times.
Paramount actions have about a 1.3 ms lock time with their 55-lb. spring
driving a light-weight firing pin about one-tenth of an inch to the primer.
That's the fastest production lock time for any rifle.
Anschutz 1400 series target rifles used to be about 2.3 ms. Starting with
their 1800 series, that got reduced to about 1.7 ms. Their new 2000 series
has about 1.5 ms so I'm told.
Mauser actions based on the original '98 design have rather slow lock times
of about 4 to 5 ms. Their long firing pin travel and weaker firing pin
spring is the reason why.
Springfield 1903s and Enfield 1917s have about the same lock time as Mausers;
around 4 to 5 ms.
Some benchrest actions (Stolle, Hall, DGA and others) have lock times
about 1.7 to 2.1 ms. As these rifles are shot from rests, lock times can
be longer and all will be fine.
From Zediker:
Performance is in the numbers!
[Remington 700 short-action]
Standard Firing Pin
SpeedLock Systems Pin
Firing pin weight 650 grains
Lock time 2.6 milliseconds
Firing pin weight 285 grains
Lock time 1.6 milliseconds
SpeedLock Systems net effect
365 grain reduction in firing pin weight [58-percent reduction]
Lock time reduced 1.01 milliseconds [39-percent reduction]
[Other models compare similarly.]
http://www.zediker.com/tubb/images/speedlock/slpins1.html
From Popular Mechanic Outdoors:
"...the EtronX with no moving parts gives you pulls that are smooth and consistent, with 36 percent less travel than the standard 700. Lock time for the electronic firing circuit is slashed to 27 microseconds. That's a 99 percent reduction compared to the standard 700's." ( I think that's written [0.00027])
This is a good article with nice illustrations:
http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/firearms/2000/5/Remington_700_EtronX/
Lock time not only can be quantified but IS quantified by the primary manufacturers as well as outside independent labs.
Best.0 -
Excellent information Nononsense!
Thanks
Snellstrom0 -
Second Snellstrom!
OleDuk[:)][:)]0 -
Nononsense, I too say, excellent information.Thank You. ShellShucker.
"Quench not the Spirit"0 -
now the question should be, "can any of you see the results of a '1/2ms' difference on target? [:)]
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.0 -
Unless you are shooting in the 800 to 1000 yards range, I don't think lock time is very much of a player in accuracy. Even then, it would take a Master Class shooter to really gain any benefit from faster lock time. Bobski's right. I don't think one in a thousand shooters would be able to see the difference on target--which is where it counts. 0
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