VERY TOUGH VINTAGE AMMO QUESTION / DEBATE / IDEA
i have a customer who collects pre-1900 infantry rifles. he specializes in self contained mettalic cartridge rifles, and has a few oddball arms (needle fire, cup fire, etc...).
i was able to obtain a SWISS VETTERLI rifle, with an original sling, and bayonet. the gun is superb, clean, and #`s matching.
the problem is suitable functional ammo. .41 SWISS RIMFIRE is not only hard to find, its expensive.
i have found a small supply of REMINGTON-UMC .41 SWISS BLANK cartidges, still loaded and in good condition. the best part is that the price is right, and the guy owes me several favors.
can a loaded, live .41 SWISS RIMFIRE BLANK ammo be converted from a noise maker to a projectile firing round???
can this be done without detonating the rimfire ignition system, or damaging the rather thin copper case???
can someone provide me with or suggest a basic course of action here???
would the soft lead projectiles need to be paper patched???
we are only talking a demonstration of the gun at 50 yds...
what would be a good substitiute projectile (334 grains, soft lead) and what type of powder and charge would be best???
is this a complete fantasy, or a tough but workable concept???
comments, anecdotes, suggestions, allagories, personal experiance, therories, conjecture, advice all sought.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
i was able to obtain a SWISS VETTERLI rifle, with an original sling, and bayonet. the gun is superb, clean, and #`s matching.
the problem is suitable functional ammo. .41 SWISS RIMFIRE is not only hard to find, its expensive.
i have found a small supply of REMINGTON-UMC .41 SWISS BLANK cartidges, still loaded and in good condition. the best part is that the price is right, and the guy owes me several favors.
can a loaded, live .41 SWISS RIMFIRE BLANK ammo be converted from a noise maker to a projectile firing round???
can this be done without detonating the rimfire ignition system, or damaging the rather thin copper case???
can someone provide me with or suggest a basic course of action here???
would the soft lead projectiles need to be paper patched???
we are only talking a demonstration of the gun at 50 yds...
what would be a good substitiute projectile (334 grains, soft lead) and what type of powder and charge would be best???
is this a complete fantasy, or a tough but workable concept???
comments, anecdotes, suggestions, allagories, personal experiance, therories, conjecture, advice all sought.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
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Many of those Swiss rifles were converted to centerfire and those cases are available. If he wants to keep it rimfire, the solution is to turn some cases from solid brass and use .22 blanks as the primer. I have some .44 pistol rimfire cases that Dixie sells that use this method that work perfectly in my Tranter. In regards to the blanks, very often sub par brass that coulndn't pass inspection was used to load them. 0 -
one of the basic concepts / ideas we discussed here at the shop was removing the existing powder, and replacing it with something suitable...
i know that they will make nice noise / flash makers for holiday demonstrations, but i wish there was a solid method of making them in to semi reliable 50yd hole punching shooters...
as a selling point, and a customer service / relations tool i try my best to get ammo for these old, oddball, obsolete, out of date, and out of production guns. but this stuff is super expensive...
i am thinking out loud here, and using you guys as a sounding board...
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.0 -
Hello, If he is looking for some original Swiss Ammo to display with the gun I have an original 10 round, Wrapped in paper and the string is sealed into the packet. Also have a 10 round 2piece box of Winchester. As you already said quite expensive. Email me if wanted.
Old Ammo, have lots always looking for more.0 -
As Mark noted, for sure, stay clear of loading bullets into blanks. Every country and mfg uses reject material for a sizeable portion of their blank production . . . not to mention the drastic difference in powders employed for the two tasks. The real question is, does he want it to shoot or to display? From time to time, nice, full, boxes of original ammo surface. Y, they are pricey, but for display with a "superb" specimen of the rifle, they would be just the ticket; I've seen several super arsenal packets (sealed) of ten pre-1900 rounds sell in the $50 - $100 range over the past five years. Shooting fodder . . . if you can find BP rounds, I'd be reasonably confident in buying them. The BP rounds don't break down like the smokeless versions. But the best you can expect to do will be $2 a round, and more likely $4. I'm not aware of any current source of ammo, but Fiocchi did produce them in the post WW2 period and typically those boxes go for about $40 and up . . . this will be the most recent factory production and would be the only smokeless loading I'd buy with an intent to shoot it.
I have a small quantity of domestic & Swiss arsenal rounds, not beautiful stuff and no warranty of ignition, culled from various bulk buys if your customer is interested . . . and if I can find the suckers in this bloody mess.
Loading a rimfire is not an exercise I recommend. All the loading systems put stress on the rim and in the wrong circumstances, things could pop. I've read of people who've done this in various calibers (more as a Hillary / Everest thing than for a practical purpose), but I don't how it was accomplished other than that they built / bought some very specialized equipment just for this purpose. To venture far outside my area of expertise, if your customer wants to shoot the rifle and has bucks, I believe he could have a modified bolt made up, replacing the original, to shoot CF versions of the round and then keep the original for show. Without my references to play with, I'm fishing blind here, but I'm sure there is some more common CF rimmed design which could serve as the basis as the brass.
The one thing I definitely would not do, though, is futz around trying to convert or reload original ammo, regardless of it being blank or ball; not to put too fine a point on it, I'd consider that a foolhardy invitation to disaster.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / DemoWipes" (me)0 -
he wants to shoot it on occasion, at our gun club picnic, or other simaler events...
he keeps all his guns original, even the "NEEDLE GUN", wich he shoots one per year. i scrounged up a whole box of MOORES PATENT TEATFIRE revolver ammo once, and he shot it all up in one session...
i think that DOMINION / CIL made some as late as the 50`s, but as we all agree, its super expensive.
are the blanks worth anything???
if the gun gets a proper cleaning are they safe to shoot???
he has over 300 1850-1900 infantry rifles, and about 100 1840-1900 pistols in his collection. some of the ammo i have never been able to obtain more that a single display piece...
i almost cried when he shot the whole box of TEATFIRE, but i have pictures, and may be one of a handful of living human beings to have fired this round. the WOW factor was high...
any more ideas or critical comments???
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.0 -
On the Swiss Rifle Forum, Vetterli Board, there are a substantial
number of posts discussing this point, i.e. making ammo or centerfire conversions of the Swiss Vetterli.
http://p083.ezboard.com/ftheswissriflesdotcommessageboardfrm7
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