Inertia(blowback) vs. gas .. simple primer wanted
After reading this http://www.rkba.org/guns/principles/operating-systems/index.shtml article on operating systems for firearms, and a friend telling me his Desert Eagle was especially loud, and operated with a "gas" system, I'm trying to gather more info on the opposing operating systems.
1) Less recoil with a gas-operated system?
2) Less recoil with a gas-operated system but more noise?
3) Smallest handgun caliber operating on gas system? Brand?
4) Which is inherently more reliable?
Thanks.
1) Less recoil with a gas-operated system?
2) Less recoil with a gas-operated system but more noise?
3) Smallest handgun caliber operating on gas system? Brand?
4) Which is inherently more reliable?
Thanks.
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Hello Jsergovic...
Gas operated semi-autos are both quieter and have less recoil than the exact same cartridge in a "blow-back" or "recoil" operated semi-auto. The earliest example of a "blow-back" semi-auto rifle is the Winchester Model 1903. John M. Browning invented & patented the blow-back self-loading system, and Colt produced it as the Model 1900 (in 38 ACP). The famed Browning A5 shotgun also utilized the same principle (though it was referred to as a "long recoil" operated system). Gas operated semi-autos came along a number of years after the blow-back system, and with the exception of nearly all of the semi-auto handguns still made today, it is the standard system used.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
1. true. a gas system helps reduce recoil since mechanical parts are absorbing some of the rearward motion and energy. 2. less noise than a blowback. the action of unlocking the bolt takes place after the shot has left the bbl or when the hot gases trailing the wad clear the bbl gas port holes in the bore. in either case, the sound is mostly going away at the time of the bolt opening. some flash is still present, (but not as much as the blowback since blowback unlocking takes place as the shot is fired at the bolt face, not 20" inches down the bbl.) 3. unknown. 4. the reliablity of either system is directly effected by the quality of ammo. blowback is less maintainance than gas. anyone care to challenge?[?]
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.0 -
Hey Jim- Bert, Bobski ,and your link covered it pretty good....the smallest gas operated handgun I'm aware of is the squeeze cocker H&K P series.But I have to tell you, in a handgun , don't expect to feel much difference in recoil....at least I can't. There is also a concern of fouling the gas port if lead bullets are used. Jacketed are always recommended.Reliability is dependant on the overall design, and in the case of H&K...it doesn't get much better.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
Nice talking to you this morning Bert[8D]0 -
The above are excellent post. I don't know if you need this info after reading them, but here it is.
The two principles are not difficult but are for different applications.
Gas tapped off the barrel pushes back against an operating rod or tappet to unlock and cycle the bolt. The projectile has departed by the time the mechanical action has taken place. There is no reasonable limit to the size of the cartridge in this system.
Blowback is strictly the rearward force of the cartridge case pushing back against the bolt face to cause cycling of the action. This system is limited to what cartridges may be fesible. The more powerful the cartridge, the greater the weight and mass of the bolt must be to contain and control the rearward push.
The smallest gas operated pistol I know of is the AMT 22 magnum Longslide. Most pistols have no need of the gas system due to the low power of the cartridges used.
Cruelty was a rare thing in the war. Fireside folks who talk about war and read about it, they figure it's cruel more often than not, but it simply isn't so... You kill in war to survive, and not because of any desire to kill.
Many men avoid battle not from cowardice but from fear of cowardice, fear that when the moment of truth comes they will not have the courage to face up to it. L'Amour0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hangfire
Nice talking to you this morning Bert[8D]
Yeah, I will grudgingly admit to the same[:D]. For those who might be wondering what this is all about, Bob (Hangfire) called me this morning whining about me always picking on him... and he got to find out first hand what a crusty old curmudgeon I really am[}:)]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
You didn't here me stutter did you[?]... Yes, I said WHINING, and the very least you could have done was warn me in advance so that I could install my hearing protection[:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by Hangfire
Nice talking to you this morning Bert[8D]
Yeah, I will grudgingly admit to the same[:D]. For those who might be wondering what this is all about, Bob (Hangfire) called me this morning whining about me always picking on him... and he got to find out first hand what a crusty old curmudgeon I really am[}:)]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
WHINING[?][?]
I called you to politely ask that you quit constantly e-mailing me for these Winchester answers. I suggested you do some simple research and find the info by yourself...You're pushing the book, and I bet I won't even get any credit!!!!
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
[Jim- if this approaches 10 posts, Bert and I will delete our posts...I'll contact Bert and tell him how to do that..[8D]]0 -
So ... in handguns, blowback is the chief operating system to cycle the firearm, and your AR-15s and sub-machine guns will be gas-operated ... ?
The link referenced states Blowback operation is usually found in pistols chambered for rounds smaller than 9mm Luger.
That makes me think my Colt and Para 45s would be gas-operated, but I know they are not, and I have never SEEN a gas-operated semi-auto handgun, but only read about them.
I breezed through a few sites:
The MP5 Submachine Gun ..... roller delayed blowback system
XM8 ..... a user removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism0 -
Don't worry about the bantering. I've got most of the answers. It'll get locked and drop out of sight for another year until some other kid wants a better understanding. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by jsergovic
So ... in handguns, blowback is the chief operating system to cycle the firearm, and your AR-15s and sub-machine guns will be gas-operated ... ?
The link referenced states Blowback operation is usually found in pistols chambered for rounds smaller than 9mm Luger.
That makes me think my Colt and Para 45s would be gas-operated, but I know they are not, and I have never SEEN a gas-operated semi-auto handgun, but only read about them.
I breezed through a few sites:
The MP5 Submachine Gun ..... roller delayed blowback system
XM8 ..... a user removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism
Jim... The linked reference is full of horse manure, and you are correct... the 40 S&W and 45 ACPs are all blow-back operated semi-autos. Here is a friendly piece of advice... believe only half of what you read (unless I wrote it of course[:D]).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
quote:Originally posted by jsergovic
So ... in handguns, blowback is the chief operating system to cycle the firearm, and your AR-15s and sub-machine guns will be gas-operated ... ?
The link referenced states Blowback operation is usually found in pistols chambered for rounds smaller than 9mm Luger.
That makes me think my Colt and Para 45s would be gas-operated, but I know they are not, and I have never SEEN a gas-operated semi-auto handgun, but only read about them.
I breezed through a few sites:
The MP5 Submachine Gun ..... roller delayed blowback system
XM8 ..... a user removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism
Nope..The majority of semi autos above 32 are short recoil [or locked breech] like your Colt and Para. The bbl and slide remain together for a short time before seperating.Read carefully the site you posted one more time.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
Bert... For real. Jims guns are not blowback, but locked breech. I thought the link was usefull-Bob0 -
[:D][:D][:D][:D] T'anks.
__________________________________________________________________________________
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quote:Originally posted by Hangfire
quote:Originally posted by jsergovic
So ... in handguns, blowback is the chief operating system to cycle the firearm, and your AR-15s and sub-machine guns will be gas-operated ... ?
The link referenced states Blowback operation is usually found in pistols chambered for rounds smaller than 9mm Luger.
That makes me think my Colt and Para 45s would be gas-operated, but I know they are not, and I have never SEEN a gas-operated semi-auto handgun, but only read about them.
I breezed through a few sites:
The MP5 Submachine Gun ..... roller delayed blowback system
XM8 ..... a user removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism
Nope..The majority of semi autos above 32 are short recoil [or locked breech] like your Colt and Para. The bbl and slide remain together for a short time before seperating.Read carefully the site you posted one more time.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
Bert... For real. Jims guns are not blowback, but locked breech. I thought the link was usefull-Bob
Bob... for the purpose of differentiating between a gas operated semi-auto, and an inertially operated system, the blow back and locked breech essentially use the same principle to operate the action. That is what I was trying to elucidate for Jim (yes, another one of those two dollar words... go ahead, go look in the dictionary[:D]).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
"blow back and locked breech essentially use the same principle to operate the action."
Agreed....close cousins[8D] Gas is a different animal!!
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob0 -
Geez ... just when it was coming together ... then it goes spinning off again ..
But now it is all together. The Locking Lugs lock the breech for a very brief interval, and the gas then blows the slide back as the barrel pivots out of battery, the shell is ejected, and the slide pushes another round into the breech.0 -
Read your link again.In a locked breeh action like yours, the mere rearward force of the ignited round forces the slide and bbl rearward until it reaches a point where the link will seperate them.
In a blowback like your Buckmark, the the slide and bbl are never together. The mere force of the ignighted round forces the slide back.
In a gas operated system a small amount of the propellant gas from the fired round is tapped off through a gas port[a small hole] drilled in the bbl. This divereted gas actuates a piston that in turn moves the slide to the rear.The bbl and slide do not travel together.
Bert and I were simply pointing out that in both blowback and locked breech they do not use the gas/piston system.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
Please dump that horse avitar!!!It makes me scroll on my 800X600 resolution that I use for easy reading[8D]0 -
The Colt stays, but I'll shorten his "trail"[:D]
Got it now. The PPK/S, Buckmark, the ones with the stationary barrel, my old AMT380 Backup, these are blowback.
The others are short recoil.0 -
BINGO!!!!
[Thanks for the trail clip[8D]]
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob0
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