1897 Winchester trench gun
I have been looking at a Winchester 1897 12 gauge trench gun. It seems to be original, fair to good condition, with a bit less than 50% blue, stock has some dings and scratches from use, no bad damage, originally a police gun. I don't know the serial number. Can anyone tell me what to look for to ensure it is original and what a fair price might be for this condition if original. Thanks!
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Look for a "Flaming Bomb" US proof for starters.
For price, start about five and keep going up. They aren't cheap.
Any man can shoot a gun, and with practice he can draw fast and shoot accurately, but that makes no difference. What counts is how you stand up when somebody is shooting back at you.
To die for what one believes is all very well for those so inclined, but it has always seemed to me the most vain of solutions. There is no cause worth dying for that is not better served by living. L'Amour0 -
Hello boattail...
Model 1897 Trench Guns were never used as Police firearms. Are you actually referring to a Model 1897 Riot Gun[?]
There are some very noticable differences between the two. A true Trench Gun will have a ventilated handguard and a bayonet lug, while the Riot Gun looks like a standard Model 1897 except for having a 20" Cylinder bore barrel. Which one is it that you are looking at[?]
If it really is a Trench Gun, there are a few very specific serial number ranges that they were made in... what is the serial number on that gun?
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Bert,
This one has the ventilated guard and the bayonet lug, so it must not have been a police gun as I was told, it definitely looks like the trench gun. I do not know the serial number, I will have to go see it again to get the number. When I see it again, I may have to buy it!0 -
Be careful about just hopping on it... there are quite a number of fakes that have been put together because of the value of a true Trench Gun. I would recommend getting the serial number, determining if it is a solid frame or Takedown (the Trench Gun was made in both, but at distinctly different serial number ranges), how many rows of holes are in the ventilated handguard, exactly where the "U.S." and Ordnance bomb are stamped (more than one location), does it have a "WB" or "GHD" stamped on it, and anything else you find stamped in the steel, or the stock. True honest Model 1897 Trench Guns can easily run up to several thousand $$$$ in value. If this one is being sold for under $2000, be VERY VERY cautious (unless the person selling it is completely ignorant of what they are selling).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Thanks for the information, Bert, I will check into those details. 0 -
Boattail- Be sure and give Bert the serial number. Those hanguards were a dime a dozen years ago, and many a nice 97[and M.12's] were forged!!!
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob0 -
Bert:
Serial number is E633*** and is in a range of valid numbers from a recent NRA article. There is NO US or bomb stampings, that same article said a number of 1918 vintage guns can be encountered without the martial markings, probably being purchased by the gov but not issued. Stamped on the barrel is CYL. P and W in a circle is stamped on the barrel and receiver. There may be an S stamped under the barrel. There is R in a square stamped in the action that comes down. There is a 322 stamped on the top of the comb of the stock. There are 29 rows of holes in the guard. What do you think?0 -
Here's a little more info. There is no "WB" or "GHD" stamped on it. It seems to be solid, not takedown, although I don't know the difference. 0 -
Bert I know you are more knowledgeable about these things than I am and not to dispute your word. I joined the Tampa, Fla. police Dept. in 1952 and we had many 1897 trench guns in the armory. Many times we carried the gun and the bayonet in the car trunks. At that time I was fresh out of the U.S.M.C. and was very familiar with that weapon. The Dept traded them all in in the late 50s. Probably could have gotten them all for a song. The number 322 on the stock of the weapon in question is probably an armory number from some civilian agency. 0 -
Hello boattail...
From outward appearances, it seems to be OK. It should be a solid frame, and it should actually have six rows of holes in the ventilated handguard (running parallel with the barrel). The "WB" or "GHD" marks were only on the Model 97 Trench Guns made for WW II. The lack of ordnance marks is correct for the early Model 1897 Trench Guns (and they were actually issued, but were not marked), but it reduces the potential value a bit. If it is correct as I have described, and with the finish condition you described, it is worth somewhere in the $1500 - $1800 range.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
quote:Originally posted by captain cove
Bert I know you are more knowledgeable about these things than I am and not to dispute your word. I joined the Tampa, Fla. police Dept. in 1952 and we had many 1897 trench guns in the armory. Many times we carried the gun and the bayonet in the car trunks. At that time I was fresh out of the U.S.M.C. and was very familiar with that weapon. The Dept traded them all in in the late 50s. Probably could have gotten them all for a song. The number 322 on the stock of the weapon in question is probably an armory number from some civilian agency.
Hmmm... that is the first time I have run into positive proof that Trench Guns were used by a regular Police Department. Not a complete a shock though. It is always nice to learn something new... thank you for the information[:)]
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Well, I bought it. At a fair price for both myself and the seller. I would not have done it without the input from everyone here because I would not have been sure that it was genuine. Thanks to you all for your help!! 0
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