ICONOCLAST: 9.3X72R SAUR cartridge / history???
TEAK...
we have a customer who broughtback a gun from the CAPETOWN area. its a BELGIAN GUILD GUN, a SXS rifle, very nice and of high quality. it came with a wooden box full of period / vintage hunting accsesories.
in the box were 2 loaded rounds, and 1 empty case. there were also 10 heads in a leather drawstring bag.
i have positivly identified the ammo as 9.3X72R SAUR. the headstamp is "H. UTENDOERFFER NURNBURG". the heads are 185-186 grain (i think) lead conical flatpoints. they are roughly .36" in diameter.
the OAL (case only) is 2.83" / the OAL (loaded) is 3.3".
i managed to locate dies, and new empty cases ($160.00 per hundred plus shipping).
i have been unable to find a history on the round. very little info in CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD or MANUAL OF CONVERSIONS. i cannot find a scource for load data, or bullet selection. i cannot locate vintage / original rounds for examination. we are going to disect 1 of the loaded rounds for observation.
never seen one before...
can anyone help with info, history, load data, tips, personal exp., etc...
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
we have a customer who broughtback a gun from the CAPETOWN area. its a BELGIAN GUILD GUN, a SXS rifle, very nice and of high quality. it came with a wooden box full of period / vintage hunting accsesories.
in the box were 2 loaded rounds, and 1 empty case. there were also 10 heads in a leather drawstring bag.
i have positivly identified the ammo as 9.3X72R SAUR. the headstamp is "H. UTENDOERFFER NURNBURG". the heads are 185-186 grain (i think) lead conical flatpoints. they are roughly .36" in diameter.
the OAL (case only) is 2.83" / the OAL (loaded) is 3.3".
i managed to locate dies, and new empty cases ($160.00 per hundred plus shipping).
i have been unable to find a history on the round. very little info in CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD or MANUAL OF CONVERSIONS. i cannot find a scource for load data, or bullet selection. i cannot locate vintage / original rounds for examination. we are going to disect 1 of the loaded rounds for observation.
never seen one before...
can anyone help with info, history, load data, tips, personal exp., etc...
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
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I have one box of Norma tips and some loose solids. actually 50 or 60. I also have 2 boxes of fired and deprimed cases. have to check for Manf. If interested Email me at <aflower@epix.net> Thanks Florence
Old Ammo, have lots always looking for more.0 -
You are correct Cartridges of the World is not much help on this one.
Mine says this is largely a collectors cartridge and that ballistics and load data are not available. It goes on that this round was loaded with a 186 grain bullet that can be obtained from both Barnes and Speer.
I also consulted Datig and his book doesn't state much more. He claims this was one of the most popular European double rifle cartridges during its time. His specs are:
Bullet diameter: 0.369"
Case diameter-neck: 0.384"
Case diameter-head: 0.427"
Case diameter-rim: 0.481"
Case length: 2.835"
Bullet weight: 193 grains
Muzzle velocity: 2150 fps
Datig states the cartridge was originally loaded with black powder and lead bullets. He also states smokeless powder loads are about 44 grains, whatever that means without a powder name.
Good luck investigating.0 -
Well, it's not much but it's something, anyway... 
I have some load information that I can work with if you'd like to see it. Otherwise I can skip it if you don't need it or want it.0 -
Mike, I've seen a variety of bullets in this caliber - lead, SP in various European designs and I believe some fully jacketed rounds as well; bullet is likely in the .364 - .370" diameter range; I'd definitely slug the bore - there are wide variations in those early rifles. I can't help you with loads; most of my references are packed and won't see the light of day for at least another eight weeks. In your shoes, especially where your shop does custom loading, I'd suggest you invest in some of the cartridge conversion books . . . there's a good one by George C. Nonte, although it is likely out of print now (think Stackpole published it?), and I have two others which I obtained when I was doing custom loading, one of them covers just about every round under the sun up to the date of publication (1980s) . . . don't recall the author . . . green jacket and about 2" thick. If you can find a copy of Phil Sharpe's book, it has recipes for many of the earlier American rounds and some metric / British items as well. A Powley computer would also be a good investment. For some of the real exotics, I've done some extrapolations / educated guesses from more common rounds of approximately the same bore & case capacity, being super, super, cautious . . . but that is only after all else came up empty; there were several WRA BP & transitional rounds roughly comparable to this cartridge if you decide to go that route. I do, however, believe if you buy the conversion books, you should be able to find some basic starting loads . . . and actually I'm surprised Walt doesn't already have them. Even with all the references published, the amount of data on this round will be minimal. You might also check with Barnes. At one time (twenty-five years ago), they produced bullets in this diameter in their "original" design and Randy may still have some kicking around on a back shelf. The only other source I can postulate would be OWS - with the usual caveat about their high prices . . . but guys who can travel to SA and buy double guns typically don't cringe at high component / ammo costs.
Bear in mind that Cartridges of the World is really just a basic reference, written by gun guys for other gun guys whose interest in any particular cartridge is cursory.
You might also try contacting the European Cartridge Association: http://www.ecra-net.de/ecra_main.html . . . often some of their members have substantially more data on the metrics than us Colonials.
Y, Tailgunner nailed it, the reference I was thinking of is by Donally or Donelly. Loading data for any given cartridge is cursory, but it gives one a starting point.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / DemoWipes" (me)0 -
Green Jacket about 2" thick sounds like Donnalleys "Handloaders Guide to Cartridge Conversions". Send me a reminder e-mail and I'll see what it has to say about that cartridge.
Another forum to ask would be over at www.Accuratereloading.com (heck there might be already be data on the "reload data" page there) in the Africian hunting, European Hunting, Reloading, and Big Bore, forums there.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
we aquired a very old box of NORMA that was half full from a friend in the trade. there is a "data card" in the box that has load data for 3 bullet wieghts, and the reverse of the card has specs and dimensions. i am told that these were often included by NORMA or LAPUA in boxs of obsolete, discontinued, special run, not catalogued ammo made in the 50`s.
we are having the BBL slugged, and i am going to "fireform" a few pieces of the lot of brass we ordered and crosscheck the dimensions against the virgin empties, the disected originals, and MANUAL OF CARTRIDGE CONVERSION.
i did find several lots of surplus ammo, and i have been told that S&B still makes it. now all we need is a lead mold to make the correct bullets. the tab is getting quite high, but the customer realy wants to use this gun at the range and in the field. he wants to try it out on DEER, and ORYX.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
mrmike,
That's a bunch of real fine progress for just a few days! Keep us in the loop as far as this any other interesting projects go.
Best.0 -
Hello, So what has happened with this project?
Old Ammo, have lots always looking for more.0 -
we obtained the dies, 500 pieces of brass, 5 boxs of NORMA loaded ammo, 5 boxs of S&B loaded ammo, lead bullet molds in 185 gr and 160 gr wieghts, both round nose flat points.
the customer / owner / importer obtained to scopes for the piece. a swedish AJAX, and a PECAR (sp?). both vintage, metal tube high quality scopes.
he is having a custom made "leg-o-mutton" leather takedown case made for the gun, to give him an alternative to the standard take-down (shotgun style) that came with it.
he is considering sending the wood to the STOCK DOCTOR to have it refinished.
he plans to take antelope, oryx, and possibly bison with the gun. personaly i think that its not enough gun for bison. it must be nice to have money...
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0
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