Varmints & Ammo
Been a lot said here in this forum as well as others about the effectiveness of the 17HMR -vs- other rounds for varmints up through fox and coyote. This prompted me to start checking things out a little more closely than I had previous, especially with the 17HMR.
On a couple of occassions I've even said that the 17HMR has more energy than the 22 mag.
So I took one of my Contenders in carbine setup with 3, identical profile, 21 inch barrels in 22lr, 22mag and 17hmr and I shot them over my chrono with the screens at 10 feet in front of the muzzle. Comparing the results of 10 shot averages to published information I determined that my measurements tracked that data.
The results are that I feel I was a little sucked in by the blizzard of martketing and gun mag. words, and based on my reading I made statements about the 17hmr energy that I now feel were partially incorrect[B)]
Based solely on muzzle velocity the 17hmr had/has the highest velocity, but this does not translate into an energy advantage if one works the math, either by hand or via one of several ballistic programs.
Of course, going in to the test, the 22lr was just used as a "control" and not even considered to be close to either of the other two rounds, so we won't get into vel. and energey any further for the 22lr.
At 10 feet I was seeing velocities that were adequate to accept the published MV for the ammo so going forward there should be no argument about the accuracy of my equipment. I was just using it to benchmark things unless the measurements were significantly different from published data.
Then checking the published data by hand and program spot calculations I satisfied myself that the published was good.
So the results of all of this:
At the muzzle the 17hmr has the highest vel. (as stated above) and the velocity advantage is maintained. However starting at the muzzle and going out to 100 yards the energy advantage is with the 22mag. loaded with the 33gr Vmax. Using the standard 40gr. bullet in the 22mag the 17hmr does edge it out at the muzzle, but at 100 yards the results are reversed with the 22mag just edging out the 17hmr.
I couldn't get any of the new 17HMR 20gr XTP rounds, but accepting the published data there is a little more energy on both ends, but not enough to beat out the 33gr Vmax 22mag.
Reason being that the 17gr or even 20gr HMR bullet can't quite make up the weight difference between the two rounds even with the 17hmr's higher velocity.
What's the approx. difference in energy at 100 yards? 160-165 ft. lbs. for the 33gr 22mag to 135-140 ft. lbs. for either of the 17hmr's.
I don't have the specs. on the Hornady bullet so I can't say what the cutoff velocity is for the 17hmr to perform to it's full capability. But I do have firsthand knowledge of bullet performance into a damp clay creek bank at 50 yards and the 17 made a more impressive crater. Yet both 17 and 22mag have in the past turned in impressive water jug performance.
Conclusion is that if you go to the specs. and charts -vs- most of the popular "scribblings" the claims for the 17hmr are only correct when using the standard 40gr 22mag. bullet, but even then the energy difference is only 20-25 ft. lbs. And if testing were done w/ longer or shorter barrel lengths the figures could swap places again.
So let's close this ramble with a mention of larger varmints and the use of either 17hmr or even 22mag at ranges over 100 yards ... if you want to make a fast/humane "kill" at 100 and 100+ ranges, don't use either. Use one of the estblished centerfires or if one wants a new rifle maybe the new Ruger 204 which I just got specs. on showing 914 ft. lbs. at 100 yards and 249 ft. lbs. at 500 yards, with the 32gr Hornady bullet.
And so ... to those that I gave the "semi-bum" advice of 17hmr energy, my apologies[B)][B)][B)]
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
On a couple of occassions I've even said that the 17HMR has more energy than the 22 mag.
So I took one of my Contenders in carbine setup with 3, identical profile, 21 inch barrels in 22lr, 22mag and 17hmr and I shot them over my chrono with the screens at 10 feet in front of the muzzle. Comparing the results of 10 shot averages to published information I determined that my measurements tracked that data.
The results are that I feel I was a little sucked in by the blizzard of martketing and gun mag. words, and based on my reading I made statements about the 17hmr energy that I now feel were partially incorrect[B)]
Based solely on muzzle velocity the 17hmr had/has the highest velocity, but this does not translate into an energy advantage if one works the math, either by hand or via one of several ballistic programs.
Of course, going in to the test, the 22lr was just used as a "control" and not even considered to be close to either of the other two rounds, so we won't get into vel. and energey any further for the 22lr.
At 10 feet I was seeing velocities that were adequate to accept the published MV for the ammo so going forward there should be no argument about the accuracy of my equipment. I was just using it to benchmark things unless the measurements were significantly different from published data.
Then checking the published data by hand and program spot calculations I satisfied myself that the published was good.
So the results of all of this:
At the muzzle the 17hmr has the highest vel. (as stated above) and the velocity advantage is maintained. However starting at the muzzle and going out to 100 yards the energy advantage is with the 22mag. loaded with the 33gr Vmax. Using the standard 40gr. bullet in the 22mag the 17hmr does edge it out at the muzzle, but at 100 yards the results are reversed with the 22mag just edging out the 17hmr.
I couldn't get any of the new 17HMR 20gr XTP rounds, but accepting the published data there is a little more energy on both ends, but not enough to beat out the 33gr Vmax 22mag.
Reason being that the 17gr or even 20gr HMR bullet can't quite make up the weight difference between the two rounds even with the 17hmr's higher velocity.
What's the approx. difference in energy at 100 yards? 160-165 ft. lbs. for the 33gr 22mag to 135-140 ft. lbs. for either of the 17hmr's.
I don't have the specs. on the Hornady bullet so I can't say what the cutoff velocity is for the 17hmr to perform to it's full capability. But I do have firsthand knowledge of bullet performance into a damp clay creek bank at 50 yards and the 17 made a more impressive crater. Yet both 17 and 22mag have in the past turned in impressive water jug performance.
Conclusion is that if you go to the specs. and charts -vs- most of the popular "scribblings" the claims for the 17hmr are only correct when using the standard 40gr 22mag. bullet, but even then the energy difference is only 20-25 ft. lbs. And if testing were done w/ longer or shorter barrel lengths the figures could swap places again.
So let's close this ramble with a mention of larger varmints and the use of either 17hmr or even 22mag at ranges over 100 yards ... if you want to make a fast/humane "kill" at 100 and 100+ ranges, don't use either. Use one of the estblished centerfires or if one wants a new rifle maybe the new Ruger 204 which I just got specs. on showing 914 ft. lbs. at 100 yards and 249 ft. lbs. at 500 yards, with the 32gr Hornady bullet.
And so ... to those that I gave the "semi-bum" advice of 17hmr energy, my apologies[B)][B)][B)]
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
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Contender Man,
Really nice to see somebody take the time to do the math! I feel no appology from you is really necessitated as you more than support your claims with the ballistics math you've done. One really wonders why no one remembers the 6mm rimfire...oh yeah, that's because it didn't offer any kind of significant advantage over the 22lr/wmr. Its' time came and went in a heartbeat and ammo is so rare as to be a collectors item now! I have one in my cartridge collection and even my well experienced buddies often ask'what the hell is that...it looks like an old 17HMR?!?!' The point being that pony ran already and isn't any faster with a new bullet; perhaps a litle better bullet technology makes it a bit more effective but it has to be a pretty marginal difference! People will often bite on this kind of marketing ploy and that makes me a little sad. Just becuse it's "new and improved" doesn't make it better!
The final point you made about the round not being adequate for animals the size of Coyotes is heartening to me. I have been a hunter since I was old enough to lug a rifle around in the woods of Michigan and one recurrent theme was proferred me by the many mentors of my youth..."you wanna' kill it son, not torture it". For those of you that take pleasure in torturing ANYTHING, keep in mind Jeffrey Dahmer was fond of torturing animals...that puts you in some really impressive company. USE ENOUGH GUN!
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"Power corrupts...Absolute power corrupts absolutely"(Descartes?)
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0 -
I agree I would not use a .22Mag or a .17HMR for Coyote or simular sized varmits.The lowest I would go is with my .22 Hornet and have taken clean coyote kills with it.I prefer my 22-250 or .223 for those task.Ive always had a couple of .22 Mags in my safe and now have a .17HMR as well.They have their place as GHD is proof of that.I dont know his current count on Ground Hogs with the .17 HMR but it is impressive.My self I would not mind seeing the 5MM come back to life,but with all of the new calibers being released today we may find alot of our current favorites become obsolete?Thaks for the info.
Best!!
Rugster
"Toujours Pret"0 -
Rugster,
In a way the 5mm is back, but they now call it the 17 Mach2, and I'm sure it will sell like crazy. Marketing folks today seem to be better than what was around years ago. Heck, I'll bet if the 5mm had came out today it would be a big seller[:D]
All of 'em have their place ... I've got 5mm T/C bbl. in the safe. Have the 17 hmr and when there is a T/C bbl. for the 17M2 I'll most likely buy one of those too. The T/C is a "sickness" with me, if it is chambered for the pistol I want one in my collection.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
ContenderMan..
thanks for all the info and for investing the time and effort to get the data comparing 17HMR and 22Mag. I've shot targets against some guys with 17's, using my 22 Mag. Both are accurate, but the 22 Mag seemed to deliver more oomph at the target.
Now all we need is to get more data on the Ruger 204! [:)]
John
A friend will post your bail. A good friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "man that was fun!"0 -
Yeah I just gotta throw my 2 cents in. I for one feel that the rimfires are inhumanely light for shooting coyote size animals. Coyotes can be tougher than they should be for their size and I couldn't in good faith use any rimfire on them at hunting distances. I know they are just varmints some of you are saying but even a coyote need not suffer, shoot'em dead use enough gun. The rimfires,(all of them) should be used on squirrel & rabbit size animals, get a 223, 22/250, 243 for the coyotes. 0 -
Good report Contender Man. Now if we could only get you to give up those ugly looking single shot pistols!![:D]
SEMPER FI MAC, SEMPER FI0 -
Sorry for the bad info in my post...I obviously meant the 5mm rimfire! Fingers are too big...my aim is bad...the keys are too small...I can't type worth a damn anyway!! I have to agree as well that if the 5mm came out today it would likely be a big hit; the Marketeers are certainly better than they were 'back in the day'! Maybe we should get these same folkes writing copy for George Bush; perhaps I wouldn't be so worried about his prospects this November! And Contender Man...don't let these guys give you too hard a time about those ugly, slow loading pistols...they gotta' have something going for them if they've sold that darn many of them!! I look at it like if you need more than one shot, you must not be trying very hard on the first one!
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"Power corrupts...Absolute power corrupts absolutely"(Descartes?)
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0
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