wsm-wssm head erosion problems
i have a friend that is a gunsmith that told me to steer away from wsm-wssm's because they have inheirent head space erosion problems. i do trust his opinion, but want as many informed opinions as i can get before purchasing a new gun
speed is what kills
speed is what kills
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Headspace erosion? What's that supposed to mean? 0 -
v35, i'm not sure if your ? is what is head space or what is erosion.
so i will atempt to answer both as good as i can. head space is the part of a chamber where the champer of a bullet seats against. erosion is deterioration. head space erosion is therefore equal to deterioration of the part of the chamber where the champer of the bullet meets it
speed is what kills0 -
There is no such thing as head-erosion.
the case head is the portion of the case consisting of the web (strongest portion of the case,..at the base of the body). Erosion,..occurs in the throat (where the rifling starts just ahead of the bullet). The only way a case head could erode itslef,..would be to be fired many times (reloaded many times) and by stretching will eventually seperate from the inside out at the web/case-head area. this is known as case-head seperation
erosion of the throat takes place much faster in wildcat calibers with high velocities such as the WSSM. The WSM has no more velocity than a standard magnum therefore, no greater erosion. As the super-heated plasma exits the case mouth,..it heats the rifling lands to extreme temps,..although for only fractions of a second. repeated firing while hot,..will cause the temp of the steel to rise and stay higher,..therefore allowing more metal to be eroded by each successive blast,..speeding up the deterioration.
You may wish to clarify whether he means case-head seperation (unlikely) or throat erosion (most likely). A good cleaning regimen and not shooting until you can't touch the barrel negates that argument as well. i however don't see any use for the WSSM,..but the WSM is another story all together.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
he did say head space erosion and that why i'm here questioning his opinion, i did'nt think head space could errode. but he insisted it could.. and i also said to him that there are cal. out there that created a hell of a lot more c.u.p. than the short or super short mags.and hold up just fine. and if it indeed was a problem, then the gun mfg. could remedy it. but he still insists, dont know if i'll buy one anyway the wsm only pump-up fps a 100 or so fps and the wssms cam be matched with other cals. ei. 22-250 and 223wssm and so on.
quote:Originally posted by JustC
There is no such thing as head-erosion.
the case head is the portion of the case consisting of the web (strongest portion of the case,..at the base of the body). Erosion,..occurs in the throat (where the rifling starts just ahead of the bullet). The only way a case head could erode itslef,..would be to be fired many times (reloaded many times) and by stretching will eventually seperate from the inside out at the web/case-head area. this is known as case-head seperation
erosion of the throat takes place much faster in wildcat calibers with high velocities such as the WSSM. The WSM has no more velocity than a standard magnum therefore, no greater erosion. As the super-heated plasma exits the case mouth,..it heats the rifling lands to extreme temps,..although for only fractions of a second. repeated firing while hot,..will cause the temp of the steel to rise and stay higher,..therefore allowing more metal to be eroded by each successive blast,..speeding up the deterioration.
You may wish to clarify whether he means case-head seperation (unlikely) or throat erosion (most likely). A good cleaning regimen and not shooting until you can't touch the barrel negates that argument as well. i however don't see any use for the WSSM,..but the WSM is another story all together.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
speed is what kills0 -
When the 300WSM and it horad of wildcat offspring leapt into being the folks at ERShaws were glad to set M98 Mausers up for them. A year later when I was looking into building a 338WSM I found that they would no longer build the M98 in any WSM as they were getting too many back. The probable reason they said was that the WSM runs at higher pressures then the older magnums, like the 300winmag. So my question is: is you gunsmith friend talking about headspace problems on new factory or reworked/custom rifles? 0 -
Stalion10, I think that you mean throat erosion(sp??). I have heard it but I don't own one.
Ray
More Powder, More Lead, More Dead0 -
Ed,
I like that, 29 stumps...
I'm going to take a stab at trying to clear a little bit of this up, not that I'm any more qualified than the others.
First, v35 was not asking any questions at all. He is a very knowledgeable poster and knows about which he speaks. He was phrasing his amazement at your wording of your post, by using the form of a question. Believe me, had your question made sense, he could have supplied an answer.
Second, the header of your post reads "wsm-wssm head erosion problems". There is no such thing as "head erosion". That, you can take to the bank. And that's what v35 was questioning when he asked, "what's that supposed to mean?". But in the body of your post, you re-state it as "headspace erosion" so that brings in more confusion because you changed the terms. But it really makes no difference because there is no such thing as headspace erosion, either. I and many others will write you and your friend chapter and verse on this.
Third, "there are cal. out there that created a hell of a lot more c.u.p. than the short or super short mags.and hold up just fine." There are NO calibers out there that create pressure, a CARTRIDGE and how it fits into the system of a rifle or handgun, creates pressure, whether it is measured in c.u.p. or PSI. The WSM and WSSM are nearly at the top of what we accept as being the physical limits of brass. Brass begins to flow at approximately 80,000 PSI and pressure can be a very tricky thing to control, so there is a ~15,000 PSI buffer to insure safety for the shooter and the firearm. There are however, a couple of exceptions but only by a very little bit.
There was a problem of erosion in the throat with the .243 WSSM which Winchester and Browning solved by chroming the bores of the barrels before the rifles went to market. There have been no reports of headspace problems at all in factory rifles.
I only intend to try and be helpful.
Best.0 -
i think what he means is the "headspace erosion" of the (usually older)gunsmith- who can't get his brain to accept anything different than a 30-06... 0 -
nononscense,
first,i did'nt think there was such a thing as head space erosion, this is why i posted the question in the first place. i've been around guns since about 1965, not that it makes me a expert, but i do consider myself moderately , and only moderately in the know about guns. but i was told it by someone that i considered an expert about the subject. i had a hard time beleiving it though because i had never heard of it before,but because i only consider myself as only moderatly in the know about guns and not an expert, i came to the forum to clear it up.secondly i posted the header the way i did to get (the experts) attention, it must of worked because everybody that has answered has been answered intel. hence again is why i came here in the first place, to ask the experts. and is why they call this forum (ask the experts). now please bare with my for a moment, i'm not, repeat not trying to come off as a smart-ellic or heavens forbid piss anybody off. because thats not in my nature and i do respect this forum and its members and their knowlege, other wise i would'nt wasted my time asking any questions here . but i get a filling you thought i has trying to be. that is why i am taking this time to explain myself to you and anybody else that might think otherwise.in my opinion v35 did know that i was asking, but just was just making sure i was asking the question i has asking before he answered it , because (head space erosion) more that likely did'nt make any sense to him as much or probably more than it made any sense to me. again that's why i posted it in the first place, because i did write head space and not head erosion in my post. and he responded with (what is head space erosion) in my opinion just to clear it up. not to be fecicious. i've read a lot of his answers and his profile and consider him to be (an expert). and he after he made sure i was asking what i was asking he posted whatt i consider a very intel. answer.
now i can not, nore will i not asume that i know what he was trying to do, nore do i THINK he was trying to be fecicious with his question, but only he can answer that. and only he can answer if i pissed him off for the way i worded my answer to his question. so what i'll do is write him an e-mail and tell him personally that am sorry if i offended him in any way, as you have in my opinion indicated in you response. if this is not what you were tying to indicate, i am very, very, sorry for taking it that way. and i want to thank you for clearing up my question also. your answer was more exstenive than any others was and in the end helped me know that i was right in the first place, and that the person that told me that was as full of @#%& as i thought about this to begain with before i posted the question to find out for sure
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
Ed,
I like that, 29 stumps...
I'm going to take a stab at trying to clear a little bit of this up, not that I'm any more qualified than the others.
First, v35 was not asking any questions at all. He is a very knowledgeable poster and knows about which he speaks. He was phrasing his amazement at your wording of your post, by using the form of a question. Believe me, had your question made sense, he could have supplied an answer.
Second, the header of your post reads "wsm-wssm head erosion problems". There is no such thing as "head erosion". That, you can take to the bank. And that's what v35 was questioning when he asked, "what's that supposed to mean?". But in the body of your post, you re-state it as "headspace erosion" so that brings in more confusion because you changed the terms. But it really makes no difference because there is no such thing as headspace erosion, either. I and many others will write you and your friend chapter and verse on this.
Third, "there are cal. out there that created a hell of a lot more c.u.p. than the short or super short mags.and hold up just fine." There are NO calibers out there that create pressure, a CARTRIDGE and how it fits into the system of a rifle or handgun, creates pressure, whether it is measured in c.u.p. or PSI. The WSM and WSSM are nearly at the top of what we accept as being the physical limits of brass. Brass begins to flow at approximately 80,000 PSI and pressure can be a very tricky thing to control, so there is a ~15,000 PSI buffer to insure safety for the shooter and the firearm. There are however, a couple of exceptions but only by a very little bit.
There was a problem of erosion in the throat with the .243 WSSM which Winchester and Browning solved by chroming the bores of the barrels before the rifles went to market. There have been no reports of headspace problems at all in factory rifles.
I only intend to try and be helpful.
Best.
speed is what kills0 -
If I may take a stab at the question, using some of the clues provided by the other posters.
The Mauser's Shaw was converting are CASE hardened with a soft core.
The Mag's in question run at the upper end of the pressure range.
The Mags in question have a relitivly large head diameter.
As bolt thrust is a factor of pressure and diameter, and that the thin layer of hard material can easly be removed by over aggressive "truing" of the receiver lug seat, it's entirly possible that he is refering to having the headspace increase (erode) due to the lugs being pounded back into the receiver.
IOW a simple case of improper word usage, as rifle people usualy think of erosion as somthing that happens in the throat of the chamber.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
YET another interesting opinion on the subject that might make sense, hence the confusion. maybe i ought to go to win. to see if the problem really exsists to put this subject to rest. thank for the input.
ed
quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
If I may take a stab at the question, using some of the clues provided by the other posters.
The Mauser's Shaw was converting are CASE hardened with a soft core.
The Mag's in question run at the upper end of the pressure range.
The Mags in question have a relitivly large head diameter.
As bolt thrust is a factor of pressure and diameter, and that the thin layer of hard material can easly be removed by over aggressive "truing" of the receiver lug seat, it's entirly possible that he is refering to having the headspace increase (erode) due to the lugs being pounded back into the receiver.
IOW a simple case of improper word usage, as rifle people usualy think of erosion as somthing that happens in the throat of the chamber.
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.
speed is what kills0
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