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Deceptive Shipping Info

Contender Man
I'm posting this here since this is where the posts have occurred that advocate giving improper info. when shipping a firearm, particularly a handgun.

It is illegal to do, and a very dumb move because if your caught you are going to find youself in a world of "legal hurt"![:(]

I don't care if some of our "learned" members have done, or still do, this routinely, as that don't change the law and there is another law called the "law of averages" that means if they keep it up they will eventually be caught.[V]

Security on parcels is getting tighter with almost each passing week, and while I don't want to shock anyone ... packages at UPS, USPS, FedEX, etc. routinely undergo spot checks and the frequency of those checks is increasing.

As Capt. Kirk shutdown the last post with this "bogus" advice, hopefully he'll let this one stay around a little while, or "Poof" this one and put up one of this own to offset the "BS".

When folks come to this forum it is reasonable for them to expect responses that are factual ... not encouragement to do something that could land them (worst case)in jail.



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If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
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Comments

8 comments

Date Votes
  • He Dog
    Hear, hear!

    He Dog
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  • Der Gebirgsjager
    Ahem! Excuuusssssse Me! I completely agree with everything you have to say. Why...I reviewed the post in question, and had the "learned" person in question encouraged anyone to break the law the scoundrel should be horsewhipped, tarred and feathered, and run out of town on a rail. However, I did note the use of the words "entertainment" and "hypothetical". No one encouraged anyone to do anything, and I am certain (and no one could be more certain than I) that the "thoughts offered for your entertainment" were just that, and the conclusions to be drawn by the reader to be his own. I also reviewed your egotistically satisfing long list of qualifications on your forum profile (my compliments on a life well-lived), and while I don't find it necessary to list mine, I assure you I can match yours in spades. So, speaking as one "learned" person to another, both with Law Enforcement backgrounds, could you edify myself and the others who will read this post by citing the law that says you must declare the contents of the package to UPS clerks? Oddly, I just received a package containing two handguns from SOG, and it says nothing about handguns, firearms, pistols, etc. on its exterior. Further the contents weren't ORM-D or hazardous. You see, there are just too many people in the world that don't see clearly. It's like the degenerate legal system in England where homeowners are imprisoned for defending themselves, and the burglars awarded the homeowner's fortunes in compensation for being shot, rather than the burglars being imprisoned. Here the answer to UPS employees stealing guns being shipped in interstate commerce would seem to be raise the rates and prosecute those attempting to prevent the guns from being stolen. Same mentality--does not attack the root of the problem, which is those engaging in theft. Perhaps you have never lost a firearm in transit, and been left wondering who ended up in possession of it and to what use it will be put. So, I leave you with this ethical question: Is it better to engage in a deception, or to place a weapon in the hands of a felon? Have you had your coffee yet this morning?[:D]
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  • p3skyking
    Hey Der,
    Don't you know no good deed goes unpunished? I still have to learn that lesson again and again.
    One of these days, the "why bother" will kick in.

    What men call a hero...is merely a man who is seen doing what a brave man does as a matter of course.
    A man who is in love with learning is a man who is never without a bride, for there is always more. L'Amour
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  • Der Gebirgsjager
    Thank you, P3--you're right; we're never too old to learn. I think I'll take your advice henceforth.[:)]
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  • Contender Man
    Glad you went back and reviewed your own post ...

    In between spouting off sessions review this:

    "A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

    [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]"

    Play all the word games for your own amusement that you want, but try and hold the thought that someone not as gifted as you may actually take the advice as serious.

    Then again, there are boys and girls at BATFE that love to play little word and "hair splitting" games so go over to their house and play.

    The moderator (Capt. Kirk) shut down the latest post after your "entertaining" advice for a reason. Of course I guess it could be that the good "Capt." hadn't had his coffee yet[:D]


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    If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
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  • nmyers
    Yes, but....

    BATFE regulations often expanded upon, confuse, & sometimes contradict the CFR & USC. Check out Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P5300.4), page 10, (e):

    "It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than (emphasis added) licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;"

    So, it would appear that it is not legally necessary to notify a carrier that your package contains a firearm if it is going to a manufacturer, dealer, or C&R. Lying to the carrier in this case may not be nice, but it would be legal.

    Neal
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  • Contender Man
    Neal,

    You are 100% correct, if, the shipment is going to a licensed entity, as written, one would not have to declare it, but if questioned by the carrier rep. your attempting to split a fine hair as to wheather the declaration then needs to be made. Reference guides can be helpful and/or confusing as heck, but they are still just guides and the law as written will prevail of guides.

    The posts I've referred to and over the past few months there have been a number of them connected with both firearms and ammo) all have advice or "suggestions" to call the shipment something else ... which is not proper advice to give because in doing this the person is in effect "intentionally uttering a false or deceptive statement". Now if no questions are asked and no statements are made you have a different situation than the one that I posted to.

    Why bring "grief" down on yourself ... it's kind of a hollow victory to spend a lot of time and money, ultimately, successfully defending yourself, when you could have avoided the whole thing by not lying in the first place.

    And as a closing rationale from a different but related perspective ... correctly declaring the contents permits the carrier to know that a firearm has been lost/stolen instead some other seemingly innocent item.


    2470099-S.jpg
    If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
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  • ATF
    If I send out a signed copy of my FFL ,I don't think the shipper would have to notify me as to what's in the package.nmyers,I like it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    [:p] [^] [:)] [8D] [^] [:p] [:)] [:D] [8D] [^]

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    There are 2 times when a man doesn't understand a woman
    - before marriage and after marriage

    ATF,Eagle Guns
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