Winchester Single Shot - 44-40
Let me start by saying I'm a sucker for Winchester Single Shots. They're great. But, I need some advice on this one. It's a low wall that originally was chambered in 25 cal something - but the bore is poor. The question is: Would it be practical to sleeve it in 44-40? Then, would 44-40 be powerful enough to shoot Steel silhouette matches out to 250 yards? I've got a 32-40 but it doesn't have quite the "oomph" necessary to knock over the rams every time. I know a 40-65 or 45-70 would do it for sure; I've got a Sharps for that. Would a 44-40 do it "most of the time"? As I say I'm a sucker for these things and would like to see it work. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Factory 44-40 loadings are feeble but handloaded 44-40
to the old high speed specs are very close to the 44 magnum.
Look into the 38-40 high speed loading. 40 cal 180 grain bullets have better sectional density and should have better retained energy at 250 yards than the 200 grain 44-40 HS. 250 yards is a long distance for these calibers.
Round nose bullets might also help.0 -
Hello,
Congratulations... you are a step ahead of most people in my book![^]
That said, just as a brief introductory, I am a VERY serious Model 1885 Single-shot collector, and I am currently in the process of writing a new reference book about them (including the Model 87 Winder Musket).
As for your low-wall, it was most likely originally chambered for the 25-20 S.S., but it may be marked "25 W.C.F." (depending upon when it was made). Low-walls were also chambered for the following 25 caliber cartridges;
25 RF (Stevens)
25-20 W.C.F.
25-21 Stevens (rare)
25-25 Stevens (rare)
The low-wall was also factory chambered for the 44 W.C.F. cartridge, but depending upon exactly when your low-wall was made, the frame may or may not be up to handling hot loaded 44-40 loads. I have pictures (if you are interested) of an original early low-wall frame (originally chambered for 22 Short) that was rebarreled and re-case color hardened, and then cracked after shooting just a scant few hot 44-40 loads through it. To further explain (without trying to get overly long-winded with this post), the type of steel used in the early Single-shot frames is not nearly as strong as the later made frames. If you would like, please get in touch with me directly through the contact information contained in my profile. I have a considerable amount of information and knowledge concerning the Model 1885.
Regards,
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Bert H.
I definately don't want to damage the rifle or to injury myself. Is there a serial number cutoff I should be aware of? Or some way to identify the "strong" from the "weak?"
I value your opinion; and those of other experts on the forum.
Thanks for your help.0 -
The reheattreatment of that damaged frame throws another variable into the mix. To be fair a brittle failure of case hardened,soft steel is suspicious. The microstructure in the area of the crack needs to be examined for hardness, defects, grain growth and "burning" that can occur from excessive and/or prolonged heating of steel during the second case hardening.
While Browning has remade the Low Wall in 223 and 243, We know the steel is superior to the originals. Nontheless there have been many conversions of Low Walls to high pressure Hornets and K Hornets.
Lastly, we don't know what HS load took the gun apart. The old factory HS load gave a 200 gr bullet 1500fps at about 16,000psi.and
I have tables using 23.5 gr of 2400 powder for 1700fps @14,000psi, 25.4 gr for 1870fps @ 20,000 psi and 27.5 gr for 2100fps @33,000 psi.
So we see there's a wide range of pressures in high speed 44-40 loadings.
All this is not to say I would ignore the failure but I certainly would want to know more about these questions.0 -
quote:Originally posted by v35
The reheattreatment of that damaged frame throws another variable into the mix. To be fair a brittle failure of case hardened,soft steel is suspicious. The microstructure in the area of the crack needs to be examined for hardness, defects, grain growth and "burning" that can occur from excessive and/or prolonged heating of steel during the second case hardening.
While Browning has remade the Low Wall in 223 and 243, We know the steel is superior to the originals. Nontheless there have been many conversions of Low Walls to high pressure Hornets and K Hornets.
Lastly, we don't know what HS load took the gun apart. The old factory HS load gave a 200 gr bullet 1500fps at about 16,000psi.and
I have tables using 23.5 gr of 2400 powder for 1700fps @14,000psi, 25.4 gr for 1870fps @ 20,000 psi and 27.5 gr for 2100fps @33,000 psi.
So we see there's a wide range of pressures in high speed 44-40 loadings.
All this is not to say I would ignore the failure but I certainly would want to know more about these questions.
Turnbull was the shop that did the recase color hardenening, and I do not suspect that it was improperly done. I also do know what the load was that cracked the frame (an acquaintance of mine owns the gun). Most of the low-walls that were converted to the Hornet and K-Hornet cartridges were the very late made Model 87 Winder Muskets, and they are of superior strength when compared to the original low-wall blackpowder frames. The best method of determining a correct vintage low-wall frame for higher intensity cartridges, is to look for the superposed "WP" in oval stamp on the receiver ring. Another indicator to look for is a factory blued frame. Winchester ceased color case hardening the Model 1885s coincident with the change in the steel alloy used to make the frames. The new alloy was not as conducive to case coloring. As for the serial number range, I would be looking for anything above 87,000, but the higher the better. The Model 87 Winder Muskets are in the 120,000 - 139735 range, and they would be my first choice.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
I think part of the problem with .44WCF in lowalls is that the barrel at the threads is fairly thin in that caliber. Getting a .44-40 to push any aerodynamic bullet fast enough to knock over steel at 250 yards is gonna stress the barrel, the reciever, and especially the cartridge case, which weren't designed for those pressures.
I don't know if a modern steel liner is stronger than the original barrel metal, although I suspect it is. My REALLY shot out .38-40 #1-weight barrel was relined by Mark Beinke of Klamath Falls, OR. He did a beautiful job and rifle is quite accurate with handloads. Killed a little whitetail buck with it a couple of years ago.
A high school friend in the late '50s used to have a late (blued) lowall .44-40 with a round barrel. We shot several boxes of the 180 gr. "for Win 1892 only" shells thru it without incident, but I wouldn't shoot equivalent .38-40 loads in my 1888-vintage lowall, even with the modern steel liner in it. I'm even a little sceptical about using converted Winder Muskets in high pressure cartridges like K-Hornet. I have one, but it's a .25-20 WCF, and I don't try to make it into a .250-3000, or even a .25-35!0 -
Bert
Was this the later WP (Winchester Proof) frame?
Without examining the microstructure one can't assume it was a normal overload failure since the receiver had been subject to a reheattreatment.0 -
quote:Originally posted by v35
Bert
Was this the later WP (Winchester Proof) frame?
Without examining the microstructure one can't assume it was a normal overload failure since the receiver had been subject to a reheattreatment.
No, it was an early blackpowder frame (44,000 serial range). Turnbull's shop anneals a Winchester frame (to soften it) before it is re-case hardened. The frame cracked on both sides at the rear side of the the breech block mortise. The loads used were handloads that approximated 44 Magnum specifications.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Thanks for all the input, guys. I really appreciate it.
Something I don't understand. In handgun silhouette a .357 mag or a .44 mag has enough power to knock down rams at 200m easily. Yet, some of you are saying - if I understand right - that a 38-40 or 44-40, loaded hot but not excessive, may be too much for the rifle?
In your opinion am I barking up the wrong tree in thinking that a low wall in 38-40 or 44-40 would be adequate (as in "usually will take down a ram") at 200m? If I ring a ram every now and then I can live with that if the rifle is fun to shoot. I'm not in the Olympics.
Thanks again, everyone.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 2520wcf
I think part of the problem with .44WCF in lowalls is that the barrel at the threads is fairly thin in that caliber. Getting a .44-40 to push any aerodynamic bullet fast enough to knock over steel at 250 yards is gonna stress the barrel, the reciever, and especially the cartridge case, which weren't designed for those pressures.
I don't know if a modern steel liner is stronger than the original barrel metal, although I suspect it is. My REALLY shot out .38-40 #1-weight barrel was relined by Mark Beinke of Klamath Falls, OR. He did a beautiful job and rifle is quite accurate with handloads. Killed a little whitetail buck with it a couple of years ago.
A high school friend in the late '50s used to have a late (blued) lowall .44-40 with a round barrel. We shot several boxes of the 180 gr. "for Win 1892 only" shells thru it without incident, but I wouldn't shoot equivalent .38-40 loads in my 1888-vintage lowall, even with the modern steel liner in it. I'm even a little sceptical about using converted Winder Muskets in high pressure cartridges like K-Hornet. I have one, but it's a .25-20 WCF, and I don't try to make it into a .250-3000, or even a .25-35!
Hello 2520wcf...
I have been shooting a Model 87 Winder Musket chambered for 22 K-Hornet (with a relined bore) for many years... several thousand rounds, and I have complete faith that it will still be shooting them in the same hole long after I am gone.
What you are probably not aware of, is that the Model 87 low-wall Winder Musket is NOT really a low-wall in the strictest sense... it is actually a milled down high-wall. Dimensionally, it is a larger frame than a true low-wall. All of the internal parts (including the lower tang) are interchangeable between a Model 87 and a high-wall, and the receiver is threaded for a large shank barrel (unlike the true low-wall).
Back in the very early 1930s, the R.F. Sedgley firm bought up all the remaining Winchester Single-shot parts (mostly Winder Musket parts as that is all Winchester was producing from early 1918 througth June of 1920 when they ceased all production of the Single-shot). R.F Sedgley specialized in converting those Winder Musket frames into custom varmit rifles... most of them in 22 Hornet. All they did was put a new barrel on the frame/action, swapped out the lever, and put a nice set of stocks (usually pistol grip) on them.
To back up a bit on the history, the Model 87 Winder Muskets did not go into production until January of 1918 (Winchester signed a contract with the Goverment on December 17, 1917, to provide nearly 12,000 of them for use as training firearms). The steel alloy used at that time was far superior to to guns made in the latter part of the 19th century (1885 - 1895), and was identical to the alloy used to manufacture all of those Russian contract Model 1895 Muskets. To back up a bit further, with the advent of sporting smokeless powder cartridges in August of 1895 (the 30 W.C.F. and 25-35 W.C.F.), Winchester had completed considerable research on improved steel alloys needed for the new smokeless powder cartridges, and began to use the new alloys on all of their various models in current production (after they got their Model 1894 and 1895 production lines up to full speed).
I hope that my long-winded reply was of some interest to all that read this... it will also be in the new reference book that I am currently writing.
Regards,
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
quote:Originally posted by Maggie Drawers
Thanks for all the input, guys. I really appreciate it.
Something I don't understand. In handgun silhouette a .357 mag or a .44 mag has enough power to knock down rams at 200m easily. Yet, some of you are saying - if I understand right - that a 38-40 or 44-40, loaded hot but not excessive, may be too much for the rifle?
In your opinion am I barking up the wrong tree in thinking that a low wall in 38-40 or 44-40 would be adequate (as in "usually will take down a ram") at 200m? If I ring a ram every now and then I can live with that if the rifle is fun to shoot. I'm not in the Olympics.
Thanks again, everyone.
Hugh... a properly loaded 38-40 or 44-40 will take down those rams quite easily (with well placed shots that is[;)]). I used to be a diehard IHMSA competitor (back some years ago), and I can count on ONE hand the number of Rams that I hit but did not topple with my Ruger .44 Mag (at a distance of 200 meters). I was launching Sierra 220 gr. FMJ-SIL bullets at 1950 fps though. As you are probably aware, in metallic silhoutte shooting, bullet design is very important. The bullet must be able to hold together long enough to impart as much of its remaining energy as possible instead of simply splatting on those T1 hardened steel silhouttes.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0
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