Full Auto II
Jay or anyone else,
If you got an 80% AR reciever, made up your own completely different trigger group and selector for select fire, got a Ares Defense Shrike upper kit and re-worked it so that it was no longer a Shrike per say, welded the AR 80% reciever mag well closed....
Would that be in accordance with the Stewart machine gun ruling?
The only factory parts that would be used would be buffer and spring, Shrike upper receiver and belt drive components and should be in compliance of a home made firearm.
If you got an 80% AR reciever, made up your own completely different trigger group and selector for select fire, got a Ares Defense Shrike upper kit and re-worked it so that it was no longer a Shrike per say, welded the AR 80% reciever mag well closed....
Would that be in accordance with the Stewart machine gun ruling?
The only factory parts that would be used would be buffer and spring, Shrike upper receiver and belt drive components and should be in compliance of a home made firearm.
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I didn't understand a lot of your question, but when I got to the part that said "select fire", I knew that I had the answer: Whatever it is that you had in mind is illegal; you cannot manufacture a machine gun.
Period.
Neal0 -
nmeyers - I think the recent Cicuit Court (9th??)says that you can - at least in their jurisdiction.
There is some comment on this in the General Discussion forum.
God Bless America and...
NEVER Forget WACO
NEVER, EVER Forget 9110 -
Brace yourself for this red/nitro/snake-eyes because you have a few problems which you may not even be aware of. I won't even touch on that court ruling because you and I have talked about it before and I can see that you remain unconvinced, that a single ruling against a law does not over turn the law nor mean that you cannot be prosecuted. I think you need to spend more time talking to firearms dealers instead of legal types who may know the laws but don't understand the regulations. Lets take a look at your plan step by step and for those out there who object to my detailed answers, you may tune out right now because this will be long and boring.
Your plan for a Shrike upper is already a problem since I have no idea of just how you plan to get your hands on an example. There are folks who have paid for these up front months ago who are still being jacked around and are no closer to getting there Shrike than they were in 2003. Ares was at the SHOT Show and there were a more than a few upset buyers clammering for their merchandise and it all feel on deaf ears. The Shrike folks went out of their way to avoid any talk about delivery times and were vauge about nearly every aspect of that product. I don't think you can get one and if you could you can't move it interstate.
Assuming that you can lay your hands on a unit you have accomplished nothing because simply "re-working" the upper does not mean that you produced the thing, it just means that you've monkeyed around with it. Also, buying something in "knocked-down" condition still means you've purchased a complete unit, even if you assemble it yourself. If you want a do it yourself M16 upper you are going to have to hit the gun show trail in your area (nothing interstate) and purchase your parts from several venders; get an upper from one, a bolt from another, the barrel from a third, and the remaining parts from still another. When you have all the parts then head out to the garage with your wrench and vise, put it all together and admire your handy work. Be sure that your creation is NOT an assault weapon/pre ban unit because the Crime Bill will still apply to you. The ruling in place with the BATFE is that REGISTERED machineguns are exempt from the Crime Bill's assault weapon provisions. Since your creation can not be registered you have to cmply with the Crime Bill or face prosecution for producing a new assault weapon. I'll bet you didn't think of that one did you???
Now then. You have some real problems ahead with your lower receiver. As we all know an 80% AR receiver is nothing but a paper weight and you can leagally assemble a non assault weapon for your personal use and not for resale (which is your plan any way). After you've gotten thrown out of your local machine shop for trying to use their facility to produce a firearm (this takes a Type 07 FFL) you will probably be left to your own devices to finish the receiver in your garage with whatever tools you can find. You are a very resourceful fellow so I'm sure you will manage this but your problems have just begun.
I've been in this business for a very long time and as far as I am aware there are just a few known ways to convert a semi automatic AR into a machinegun and here comes your problems. Method one involves the use of the so called "drop in auto sear". There are still some of these available for sale but you can't touch one outside of your home base...you either need to find an example in your area and you CANNOT build your own for this reason: While drop in sears are leagal, they must have been produced before the cut off date of 01 November, 1981. After that date they needed to be registered as machineguns or destroyed and the possession of a unregisterd or even a pre 1981 drop in auto sear with an AR-15 is a felony in and of itself. This regulation had been in force 5 years before the cut off date for new machineguns so you can't use a drop in sear for your conversion without ending up in jail for a violation of that older regulation. You will also need some M16 parts for the conversion and this , as we will soon see, is another problem in and of itself. There are also what are known as Lightning Links for conversions, but these will also fall under the preview of the drop in auto sear.
Conversion method two; You can drill the hole in the upper receiver to accept the GI auto sear and then change out the semi automatic components for the full auto examples. PROBLEM. For years before the 1986 ban on machineguns it has been illegal to install an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconector, or selector in an AR-15 rifle and doing so is another felony and people have gone to jail for this one because the BATFE takes it VERY seriously. This is why you cannot order M16 parts from the big suppliers without providing them with either your FFL or a copy of your NFA Tax Stamp-- they don't want to go to prison either for the cost of a few parts! You could produce your parts yourself, but you are still prohibited from installing them in your lower. Are you with me so far?
If you can figure out a way to get around all of this then please post your plan here because myself and other dealers would be very interested in learning about your method for achieiving automatic fire in a non standard way. I am NOT saying that it cannot be done, I am saying that I have listed the only known methods. Always keep in mind that nothing can be purchased outside of your home state and even then I am sure that you'll end up in very deep trouble if you even attempt this sort of thing. Of course I've told you that before and it has not even slowed your dedication to this project. Good luck on raising your bail money!
Mark T. Christian0 -
Red223:
At this point there is no legal way to manufacture a MG for your own personal use, or for sale without having a SOT/07 MFG license, Stewart ruling or not.
Even so, the SOT/07 means that you are supposed to be making items for resale, not for your own personal collection.(C&R is for personal collection, not other FFLs.
until the stewart ruling makes its ways fully thru the chain of appeals, the ATF will deny all Form 1s to make such.
now, YOU can make a firearm for your own use, and it doesn;t matter whose tools you use to do so, as long as you are doing the work.
So, contradicting Mr Christian above, you CAN use another persons machine shop to finish and/or make something, they do NOT have to have a SOT/07MFG, as its YOU who are doing the work on your item, for your use.
back to your original question, per Stewart, remember that the ATF went on at length to point out that the MGs(sten type) were significantly "unique" in comparison to other sten type MGs.
Stewart did not just get a sten kit and a muffler pipe and weld something together, he used handmade parts, and parts from no sten guns to make them, including a trigger from what teh ATF said looked like it came from a bolt action rifle.
so, if stewart turns out to work FOR us, the primary important part is the finding by the judge that the Feds lack the authority to govern or restrict that which does NOT enter into interstate commerce.
the secondary part is teh finding of the uniquenss of teh actual MG they examined, its unique because its his own design.
so if you take a 80% lower, and slap a upper of any kind, shrike or not, and say, make it a open bolt like a Demaco/COLT LMG design, that may satisfy the ATF.
on the otherhand, the uniqueness part may end up being a non-issue, being as the interstate commerce clause decision is the really important thing.
If that happens, then we can just make MGs from scratch(80% receivers)and register them for the $200 making tax, and keep in mind teh restrictions that will be placed on them:
Cannot sell it to anybody.
Cannot take it out of state( interstate commerce is the reason behind filing a 5320.20 to transport a MG/SBS/SBR/DD interstate).
personally, i can live with those restrictions, I dont go out of state much[:D] and i'd love to be able o make my own MGs, then i can put my valuable transferrables in the closet.
hope this answered your question.
BTW, anybody know why the other thread got locked?0 -
Jay I appreciate your insightful post (where have you been hiding?)but I must disagree with you on the use of another licensed business to construct a firearm. The open bolt idea is an interesting concept because many years ago SWD offered an Atchisson open bolt conversion unit which was easily installed in any M16 and allowed for open bolt operation. This conversion unit ivolved a new hammer with a bolt sear acting independently and an automatic bolt catch which, when you inserted the magazine, released the bolt from the hold open position and moved it over to the sear. As soon as the trigger was pulled the bolt went forward and the weapon fired and continued to do so until the trigger was released and the sear brought back into play. I beleive that around 12 parts made up this kit and although I have not seen an example in many years (and I'm a Colt LE dealer), it could provide a basis for such a project as red dreams of. You'll still need the M16 components and these continue to present problems under current regulations. You and I both agree that this case has many legal hurdles ahead of it before the first Form 1 gets filed and approved.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Mark, why don't you visit the subguns.com discussion board and add some your great insight to the topics posted there as well? I've been reading your posts here for a long time and you seem to have alot of knowledge on NFA issues. I think it would be a great addition to the people that frequent that board.
TD0 -
Mark, I've been hiding at Subguns.com, i didn't even know gun broker had boards until Treedawg pointed the previous string out to me:-)
No disrespect intended, the whole thing you miss with the opinion on "use of another licensed business to construct a firearm" is the portion about WHO is actually doing the work.
if you dropped the plans off and had an employee at that business do the manufacturing thats something completely different than if YOU are just using the equipment to make something for YOU, and not for resale. If the business is making the firearm FOR you, without you doing the work, then thats where the problem is.
if you are making firearms for resale, not personal use, then you are required to get a manufacturing license(and pay the federal excise tax, which i think is 11% of retail).
however, a private citizen is federally able to make any firearm, save a MG, for personal use(local law may prohibit this tho, check local/state laws).
Whose tooling you use doesn't matter, if YOU yourself is doing the actual work. Using the reasoning in your statement, renting tooling and machines from a rental business would make THEM involved in the manufacturing process, and we know that that isn't true.
Same would go for if I need to chop a barrel for my SBR. If I have the approved form 1, and I head over to my frinds shop because he has a lathe that gives it a nice perfect cut and crown, and I do the work, he is not involved in the BUSINESS of manufacturing a firearm.
I all revolves around who is actually doing the work, not exactly WHERE it is done.(for SOTS it may be different because of them haveing a licensed premises)
Even SOTs can subcontract component work out to shops that do not have a federal SOT to manufacture such items.
Another good example here is a buddy of mine that has filed several form 1s to make his own suppressors. he pays the tax, waits for approval, then takes his materials to his buddies machine shop, and physically makes his suppressor.
He cuts and threads the tube, machines the endcaps and baffles, everything, but he uses his buddies actual equipment.
the buddy who owns the machine shop is not making the can, my bud is, and he is the one who puts his manufacturing marks on it.
Its his materials, his work, and his skill. AND, further, HE is the listed manufacturer of the device, not his buddies machine shop.
Again, if he just dropped off the tubing, and baffle stock off with a set of plans, thats where things go awry, and can cause trouble for the machine shop owner.
again, i'm not a lawyer, and this isn't a legal opinion, but this is how things work in general regarding this sort of process.0 -
Very insightful and I appreciate the responses! I have access to mills and a machine shop you all would drool over, we make aircraft parts. I've only machined flash hiders and muzzle brakes but have always dreamed of making my own firearm from scratch one day and have pestered Mr. Christian for gobs of information...Thanks Mark!
Since everyone is saying stay away from full auto and ignore the 9th Circus Court ruling as I'm for one I'm no longer in it's jurisdiction I'll avoid this project and put my receivers together as Semi only.
Mark, since I've left your State I've had a ball shopping here! Picked up a Romanian AK, Two more AR receivers, a Remington 742, one drum, many magazines, and over $600 of RCBS reloading equipment. I'm still awaiting a response from the Attorney on that court case we discussed previously.
If I hear of anyone getting a Shrike in the next month I'm sending them money, if not it's going to be a .50 for me next. I got $10,000 for saving the Gov. money. Heck of a program.
Again thanks for the replies.0 -
Glad i could help, and dont give up full hope, like I said before, it will be an uphill fight.
the only real way this will be won is if someone sues over it, and has the absolute bucketfuls of cash to pursue a courtcase to the Supreme court, and even then, they can just refuse to hear it.
Along with that issue, is this: if a person has bucketfuls of cash to fight a case to the supreme court, why would they not just buy transferrable MGs, instead of fighting for a homemade MG that actually will have NO VALUE but to the owner? Remember, no resale, no transfer, no interstate transportation, no bqueathing the item to an heir, no anything.
Also, something that hasn't been brought up....not just the receiver of the gun is covered under the interstate commerce clause.
Say that a person comes up with a viable unique homemade design. This ends up in a run on a certain amount of parts made for this.
if these parts are made in enough amounts, the very parts that make up this unique design, if used in significant quantities, will result in an impact on interstate commerce, then the Feds jump in again.
this won't be a 2nd Amendment issue, but a fight against the Feds interstate commerce powers, and as we know, the Feds don't give up any power without a fight.
good luck, and keep safe.0 -
Not to flog a dead horse....but if any business (machine shop or manufacturing facility, etc.) knowingly allowed you to conduct illegal business on their premises, or conducted such illegal buusiness for you, they're as guilty as you are. 0
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