Wouldn't this be illegal?
This item is for sale here on GB. In one pic it has a very long extended barrel on it, but isn't the setup pictured below illegal?
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I'm under the impression if it has a shoulder stock it must have a 16" barrel and a minimum o.a.l. of 27 inches. I believe that curios and relics with detachable stocks are now exempt though.
This obviously isn't a C&R weapon though. By any chance does the auction say "law enforcement only"?
Woods0 -
To be legal it would require being registered as an SBR and paying the $200 tax stamp[xx(]
SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN0 -
yep a sbr, $200 tax
putting on a folder stock would make it a AW, in voilation of 922, if is a postban.
Usless IHMO
Walte0 -
Even supposing it *was* legal, and I don't believe it is based on NFA regs, WHY would anyone want such a thing? When the day is done, all one has is a shoulder weapon with a four inch (+/-) barrel which will only shoot marginally more accurately - maybe - than the handgun alone, something too bulky to be used for much and just plain UGLY. Seller is either several crayons short of a full box or some alphabet drone trolling for an easy bust, but I repeat myself.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain)0 -
As they stated above sbr ,but it falls into the "any other weapon" category ,and you cannot make one and just pay the tax ,you have to aply first ,them get aproved ,possesion of a stock and a gun that fits it is a felony
I feel sorry for the guy who has that auction ,if the batf sees it
and
the legal over all length is 26 inches
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
hey woods...i go through hamlin everyday on my way to work...small world..tom 0 -
This appears to be the Israeli conversion unit. With a barrel over 16 inches it is legal. As shown, unless it is acceptable for licensing, the "puppy" is flat illegal.
Who wants 'em ... mmmmm let's see, Gang Bangers and Ninja wantabes come quickly to mind ... closely followed by the tribe of the secret squirrel.
Accuracy improvement? Minimal at best and maybe that goes to marginal if 16+ barrel is use.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
$200.00 tax for Uncle Sam or a 16 inch barrel. A threaded 6" Glock barrel and a 10 inch extension would work. I did that when I had my Glock 21. Then I saw the light and went with the 10mm. My 2 cents. [8D]
Greg
Former
USMC
ANGLICO0 -
quote:Originally posted by gonepostal
...possesion of a stock and a gun that fits it is a felony...
I feel sorry for the guy who has that auction ,if the batf sees it
Edit: I might be wrong on this statement, please read below
The stock must be connected to the firearm before it would be a felony--mere possession of both is not a felony.
The guy is in Germany so he doesn't have to worry about the ATF.
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=156130110 -
if you posses it and the firearm it goes to ,it is a felony ,look it up before you post ,i did
we are not in germany
if we are taking the word of a person who host auctions look here and read this one
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=15743133
ruling 179.11 clearly states that possesion of both make a nfa weapon ,sure the batfe is stupid enough to fall for possesion of both but not attached doesn't make it ilegal ,sure like haveing a full auto trigger pack for an ar-15 ,while i have 2 ar-15's in the safe is legal ,wrong
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
quote:Originally posted by gonepostal
if you posses it and the firearm it goes to ,it is a felony ,look it up before you post ,i did...
...ruling 179.11 clearly states that possesion of both make a nfa weapon ...
I've been reading; you might be right based upon "decisions" made by the ATF, but it doesn't appear to be very clearly spelled out in the law. Please post additional info. if you have it. (Please, you sound "argumentative" in your response; I'm just interested in getting an understanding of the true legal picture here.)
"179.11" isn't a "ruling"; it is part of the code of laws relating to definitions:
Subpart B--Definitions
Sec. 179.11 Meaning of terms.
When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part,
where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with
the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this
section. Words in the plural form shall include the singular, and vice
versa, and words importing the masculine gender shall include the
feminine. The terms ``includes'' and ``including'' do not exclude other
things not enumerated which are in the same general class or are
otherwise within the scope thereof.
Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using
rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and
manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof,
whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also
any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for
which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is
not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on
the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an
explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore
designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with
combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18
inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from
either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such
weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not
include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or
weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and
not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
ATF officer. An officer or employee of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) authorized to perform any function relating
to the administration or enforcement of this part.
Customs officer. Any officer of the Customs Service or any
commissioned, warrant, or petty officer of the Coast Guard, or any agent
or other person authorized by law or designated by the Secretary of the
Treasury to perform any duties of an officer of the Customs Service.
Dealer. Any person, not a manufacturer or importer, engaged in the
business of selling, renting, leasing, or loaning firearms and shall
include pawnbrokers who accept firearms as collateral for loans.
Destructive device. (a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1)
bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellent charge of more than 4
ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more
than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) similar device; (b) any
Page 1202
type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be
readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive
or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more
than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which
the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for
sporting purposes; and (c) any combination of parts either designed or
intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as
described in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this definition and from which a
destructive device may be readily assembled. The term shall not include
any device which is neither designed or redesigned for use as a weapon;
any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is
redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety,
or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the
Secretary of the Army under 10 U.S.C. 4684(2), 4685, or 4686, or any
device which the Director finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or
is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for
sporting purposes.
Director. The Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms,
the Department of the Treasury, Washington, DC.
Director of the Service Center. A director of an Internal Revenue
Service Center in an internal revenue region.
District director. A district director of the Internal Revenue
Service in an internal revenue district.
Executed under penalties of perjury. Signed with the prescribed
declaration under the penalties of perjury as provided on or with
respect to the return, form, or other document or, where no form of
declaration is prescribed, with the declaration:
``I declare under the penalties of perjury that this--(insert type
of document, such as, statement, application, request, certificate),
including the documents submitted in support thereof, has been examined
by me and, to the best of my knowledge and belief, is true, correct, and
complete.''
Exportation. The severance of goods from the mass of things
belonging to this country with the intention of uniting them to the mass
of things belonging to some foreign country.
Exporter. Any person who exports firearms from the United States.
Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18
inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other
weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or
a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included
within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not
include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or
destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director
finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be
used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the
barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be
determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of
the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or
rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or
rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured
along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.
Fixed ammunition. That self-contained unit consisting of the case,
primer, propellant charge, and projectile or projectiles.
Frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for
the hammer, bolt or breechblock and firing mechanism, and which is
usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.
Importation. The bringing of a firearm within the limits of the
United States or any territory under its control or jurisdiction, from a
place outside thereof (whether such place be a foreign country or
territory subject to the jurisdiction of the United States), with intent
Page 1203
to unlade. Except that, bringing a firearm from a foreign country or a
territory subject to the jurisdiction of the United States into a
foreign trade zone for storage pending shipment to a foreign country or
subsequent importation into this country, under breastle 26 of the United
States Code, and this part, shall not be deemed importation.
Importer. Any person who is engaged in the business of importing or
bringing firearms into the United States.
Machine gun. Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can
be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without
manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall
also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any
combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such
parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
Make. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall include
manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business
under this part), putting together, altering, any combination of these,
or otherwise producing a firearm.
Manual reloading. The inserting of a cartridge or shell into the
chamber of a firearm either with the hands or by means of a mechanical
device controlled and energized by the hands.
Manufacturer. Any person who is engaged in the business of
manufacturing firearms.
Muffler or silencer. Any device for silencing, muffling, or
diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination
of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling
or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part
intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or
corporation, as well as a natural person.
Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a
projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and
having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped
by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the
bore(s).
Regional director (compliance). The principal ATF regional official
responsible for administering regulations in this part.
Revolver. A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a
breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the
hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next
cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.
Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended
to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or
remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire
only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of
the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily
restored to fire a fixed cartridge.
Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and
intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and
made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball
shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall
include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed
shotgun shell.
Transfer. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall
include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or
otherwise disposing of.
United States. The States and the District of Columbia.
U.S.C. The United States Code.
Unserviceable firearm. A firearm which is incapable of discharging a
shot by means of an explosive and incapable of
Page 1204
being readily restored to a firing condition.
http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=26640019183+14+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve0 -
The atf handbooks do not suggest the type of charges a person will receive if in violation due to liability reasons ,here is what stated later in that chapter
(M23) If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this consbreastute possession of an NFA firearm?
Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items.
Quote :If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this consbreastute possession of an NFA firearm?
This can be interpretated two ways
1. if you posses both ,not necessarily attached
2. if you posses both , attached
if anyone feels it is worth taking a chance on me being right or wrong please go ahead and do so
my sheriff department has a posted letter {with pics} from the batfe with this exact subject ,it includes the glock and the stock ,not attached ,and is illegal
as a ffl holder you get the rule books that are made for me and you ,the police get one that is made for them , a more clearer version if you will0 -
The only Glock that I could think of this being beneficial to is the Glock 18 in full-auto...
I was looking for a CCU (carbine conversion unit) for my 10mm and stumbed across the questioned post...0 -
[:D] Wasn't all this decided with the Contender and /Contender Carbine/ stocks and bbls. a few yrs back. i mean if I have a Contender pistol 10" and a Carbine stock and bbl. I can interchange and put the 10" bbl on the frame while in the carbine config,(which would not be legal) or put the 16" or what ever carbine bbl on with the pistol grips,(which would be OK if i registered the frame as a handgun on purchase) i beleive it was sugested to register you Contender frame as a pistol and possion of the other stocks/bbl combos were allowed. guess this should open a new can of worms.[;)]
American used to Roar like Lions for Liberty- Now they Bleat like Sheep for Security.
Always Remember Security without Liberty is called PRISON! -0
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