Very Rare M-14 Variation Value/Opinions/Comments
I have recently aquired what is one of the scarcest M-14 varieies ever made, and would like some feedback on what it might really be worth. You will soon see I am not bragging about this, but really still interested in opinions/discussion about what I have. You really have to read the whole story to see how this all unfolded. Hang in there with me for a while, please, you may get a chuckle out of this or learn a valuable lesson even if you can't help me.
It is interesting how I stumbled across this, a Smith M-14, but again, don't want to brag about it, it may not be as good as you are thinking. It was walking down the isle at a local gunshow with it's owner the end of last November. I had a table set-up to sell accessories, and knew the dealer on one side of me very well. I got to know the dealer on the other side of me pretty well during the show, that's how shows go. The owner of the M-14 was walking down the isle with it, and my new aquaintence/friend dealer asked to look at it. He looked it over pretty well, and told the guy he would buy it if he sold something, so, told the guy to check back at the end of the show.
The dealer told me he was very interested because it was a Smith with the forged receiver. I didn't look at it that close, and really didn't know that much about them (being the BM59 kinda guy I am) but it did perk my interest. The guy shows up a couple of hours later, but the dealer was having a slow show, and couldn't buy it. Again, I was looking at it over the shoulders of two dealers. I told the guy I'd like his name and phone number, and could probably do something on it in a couple of weeks.
I contacted him by phone soon therafter, to get more info on the rifle. The seller is a sherriff's officer who bought it from the original owner several years ago. The sherriff's officer lives in a small town about 60 miles from me. Both these guys are now into the high powered (magnum) bolt action rifles. The seller really didn't know that much about it, except what he had heard from the original owner. So much of my information is really just what he told me on the phone. I asked him about the barrel. He said he didn't know, but could check, but thought it had Krieger parts in it. The original owner had it built by Smith so the owner could qualify as Master shooter. He said someone had told him it had a double lugged receiver, but swore he really didn't know about this sort of rifle and didn't really know. He was more interested in the bolt action high-powered magnums. The serial number was in the range of 210 to 220. He said it had less than 2500 rounds through it, from what the previous owner had told him, it wasn't shot that much. Considering the interest the dealer(s) had in it, it was becoming hard to pass up. He wanted $1400 for it, with four USGI mags, a five round mag, and a Springfield Armory scope mount. I asked him if I could send him $500 to hold it until February. He said that would be fine. So my check went out, and he cashed it.
Considering I didn't look it over all that well, and didn't know how to tell a forged receiver from cast, I knew this may be different that I have been lead to believe. I was trusting the impression and comments of the dealers close to me at the show. I was just glad I had the where-with-all to get the guys phone number. I figured a Smith M-14 with a serial number of less that 220 has to have some collector's value, amoung other things.
So I picked it up last week, and still not knowing that much about it, did some further investigation. First, I discovered it was NOT a Smith Enterprises M-14, The receiver heel was marked:
U.S. RIFLE
7.62 MM M-14
SMITH LTD
021X
The barrel is marked TRW on the side, on the top, half way back between the flash hider and the gas port, is stamped: NM. Definately not a Krieger barrel, but a TRW National Match barrel.
Bolt is marked: HTR A17
Stock is marked under the gas tube: 247. It has a P in a circle on the bottom of the grip.
Front and rear sights are National Match.
Looked at the trigger group to see if I could find any National Match markings on it, I see the Hammer is TRW, but don't see any other markings outside of possibly a distorted SA on the safety. However, I am very impressed with the trigger. It probably has the nicest trigger on any rifle I've ever owned. So if it wasn't a National Match trigger to begin with, someone has worked it into a very impressive pull and let-off. Yes, it's even nicer than my BM59s.
It is definately not double lugged.
It does look to be very well cared for, great bore, would probably rate it close to excellent condition.
I have found out that Smith Ltd. and Smith Enterprises are (or were, in the case of Smith LTD) very different companies. I knew Smith Enterprises made about 3000 rifles before stopping, with some 290 on billet machined receivers. I had no idea Smith LTD ever existed.
But I found out Smith LTD (out of Ohio) did make receivers, and apparently complete rifles on cast receivers back in the last 1980's. And apparently, they only made about 250 of them! I have read that there is very little known about them, but one fellow on another board said he had checked one of their receivers and it passed the test prescribed in the Kuhnhausen manual. Another post of his indicated the real Smith Enterprises had gunsmithed Smith Ltd firearms. Apparenty, the receivers are within spec (outside of the fact that they are cast).
So I really am wondering what I have, value wise. I think I could have picked this up for less money had I bargained with the guy, but I felt like I was taking advantage of him and paid him his full asking price. I honestly don't think he intentionally misrepresented it, it probably was built by Smith, Ltd. as a match rifle. And I doubt I will have a lot of trouble getting my money back out of it, should that time ever have to come. All I think I will need to do is offer it, and let people's immagination, or their dangerous "little bit of knowledge" take over.
I have even considered listing it on gunbroker with some rediculous reserve, and be competely honest about it (outside of ommitting certain information) just to see what it might be bid to.
I think you all should get the moral of the story. Maybe there is more than one. You definately can't trust all dealer's opinions on Smith M-14s, even if they don't own it. That is for sure.
Does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts at all on what this might really be worth? Anything else to look for? Thanks!
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
It is interesting how I stumbled across this, a Smith M-14, but again, don't want to brag about it, it may not be as good as you are thinking. It was walking down the isle at a local gunshow with it's owner the end of last November. I had a table set-up to sell accessories, and knew the dealer on one side of me very well. I got to know the dealer on the other side of me pretty well during the show, that's how shows go. The owner of the M-14 was walking down the isle with it, and my new aquaintence/friend dealer asked to look at it. He looked it over pretty well, and told the guy he would buy it if he sold something, so, told the guy to check back at the end of the show.
The dealer told me he was very interested because it was a Smith with the forged receiver. I didn't look at it that close, and really didn't know that much about them (being the BM59 kinda guy I am) but it did perk my interest. The guy shows up a couple of hours later, but the dealer was having a slow show, and couldn't buy it. Again, I was looking at it over the shoulders of two dealers. I told the guy I'd like his name and phone number, and could probably do something on it in a couple of weeks.
I contacted him by phone soon therafter, to get more info on the rifle. The seller is a sherriff's officer who bought it from the original owner several years ago. The sherriff's officer lives in a small town about 60 miles from me. Both these guys are now into the high powered (magnum) bolt action rifles. The seller really didn't know that much about it, except what he had heard from the original owner. So much of my information is really just what he told me on the phone. I asked him about the barrel. He said he didn't know, but could check, but thought it had Krieger parts in it. The original owner had it built by Smith so the owner could qualify as Master shooter. He said someone had told him it had a double lugged receiver, but swore he really didn't know about this sort of rifle and didn't really know. He was more interested in the bolt action high-powered magnums. The serial number was in the range of 210 to 220. He said it had less than 2500 rounds through it, from what the previous owner had told him, it wasn't shot that much. Considering the interest the dealer(s) had in it, it was becoming hard to pass up. He wanted $1400 for it, with four USGI mags, a five round mag, and a Springfield Armory scope mount. I asked him if I could send him $500 to hold it until February. He said that would be fine. So my check went out, and he cashed it.
Considering I didn't look it over all that well, and didn't know how to tell a forged receiver from cast, I knew this may be different that I have been lead to believe. I was trusting the impression and comments of the dealers close to me at the show. I was just glad I had the where-with-all to get the guys phone number. I figured a Smith M-14 with a serial number of less that 220 has to have some collector's value, amoung other things.
So I picked it up last week, and still not knowing that much about it, did some further investigation. First, I discovered it was NOT a Smith Enterprises M-14, The receiver heel was marked:
U.S. RIFLE
7.62 MM M-14
SMITH LTD
021X
The barrel is marked TRW on the side, on the top, half way back between the flash hider and the gas port, is stamped: NM. Definately not a Krieger barrel, but a TRW National Match barrel.
Bolt is marked: HTR A17
Stock is marked under the gas tube: 247. It has a P in a circle on the bottom of the grip.
Front and rear sights are National Match.
Looked at the trigger group to see if I could find any National Match markings on it, I see the Hammer is TRW, but don't see any other markings outside of possibly a distorted SA on the safety. However, I am very impressed with the trigger. It probably has the nicest trigger on any rifle I've ever owned. So if it wasn't a National Match trigger to begin with, someone has worked it into a very impressive pull and let-off. Yes, it's even nicer than my BM59s.
It is definately not double lugged.
It does look to be very well cared for, great bore, would probably rate it close to excellent condition.
I have found out that Smith Ltd. and Smith Enterprises are (or were, in the case of Smith LTD) very different companies. I knew Smith Enterprises made about 3000 rifles before stopping, with some 290 on billet machined receivers. I had no idea Smith LTD ever existed.
But I found out Smith LTD (out of Ohio) did make receivers, and apparently complete rifles on cast receivers back in the last 1980's. And apparently, they only made about 250 of them! I have read that there is very little known about them, but one fellow on another board said he had checked one of their receivers and it passed the test prescribed in the Kuhnhausen manual. Another post of his indicated the real Smith Enterprises had gunsmithed Smith Ltd firearms. Apparenty, the receivers are within spec (outside of the fact that they are cast).
So I really am wondering what I have, value wise. I think I could have picked this up for less money had I bargained with the guy, but I felt like I was taking advantage of him and paid him his full asking price. I honestly don't think he intentionally misrepresented it, it probably was built by Smith, Ltd. as a match rifle. And I doubt I will have a lot of trouble getting my money back out of it, should that time ever have to come. All I think I will need to do is offer it, and let people's immagination, or their dangerous "little bit of knowledge" take over.
I have even considered listing it on gunbroker with some rediculous reserve, and be competely honest about it (outside of ommitting certain information) just to see what it might be bid to.
I think you all should get the moral of the story. Maybe there is more than one. You definately can't trust all dealer's opinions on Smith M-14s, even if they don't own it. That is for sure.
Does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts at all on what this might really be worth? Anything else to look for? Thanks!
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
0
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Your fingers must be cramping up on you; I don't think that you've ever typed a post this long.
First, let me say that match-prepared M14-clones are currently a drag on the market. Most high power target shooters have switched to the mouse gun (AR-clones), & a lot of them are selling their old M14-clones at bargain prices. So, there are a lot similar rifles out there.
Second, just because Smith LTD didn't make a lot of receivers, that doesn't make them valuable. I don't think that you can expect to send the kids to college on a quick resale. Your rifle was obviously hand-assembled, & the exact modifications & skill of the gunsmith would determine its value. If you check out Fulton Armory's website, you will find that there is a wide range of match modifications available for a target rifle. I think that you will need to have a gunsmith/armorer/shooter who is familiar with M14-clones determine exactly how much yours was modified, & this will require a hands-on examination.
In the end, the quality & extent of modifications will determine the theoretical value, not the rarity of the receiver. In real life, what someone is willing to pay on any given day will determine the actual market value. As of now, I guess, the value of your rifle is $1,400.
Neal0 -
to keep my fingers intact, i will keep it short. you have a privately assembled match grade M1A. thats it. there is no premium for your receiver. the value of a receiver is how well it is machined and works when installed. people dont collect receivers. 1400.00 is market. let it pass unless you want to shoot matches. and without a rifle history log, the condition of the bbl is unknown. the range is the only way to find the value of the gun....at 600yds.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.0 -
you mentioned you were a bm-59 man ,so you know what type of different value ranges you get when asking about those ,but in this case Rarity can make it go up or down ,depends on how you look at it
Lack of knowledge ,parts, and marketability ,could work against it
The fact that it is rare to us bm-59 fans gives me wood ,you stated you got a scope mount ,and four usgi mags ,I recently learned that they alone can fetch 90.00 each ,plus the scope mount ,could be in the range of 400.00 just for those ,so this means you got a pre-ban m14 ,which in fact is a redone poly-tech m-14 ,with a base price of around five bills and up,they totally reworked it ,heat treated it ,and the only thing left original is probably the stock and receiver ,I don't think you got hurt at all
American rifleman July 91
Smith M-14 National Match Rifle
Highpower rifle shooting was the reason NRA was established in 1871, and it remains the premier NRA discipline, with about 25,000 classified competitors.
While a minority of highpower shooters use bolt-action match rifles, the heart of the sport is service rifle competition with semi-automatic M1, M14 and M16 rifles or their commercial equivalents like the Springfield Armory M1A or Colt AR-15.
A big part of service rifle's appeal is the fact that externally the rifles are all alike, and shooters don't face the invidious comparisons that are obvious, in say, smallbore rifle. The fact that the outlines are the same disguises the fact that, under the skin, service rifles can be as different as an Anschutz free rifle and a Stevens Favorite.
The Smith Enterprises M-14 National Match is an example of just how much strain can be placed on the concept of a service rifle while remaining comfortably within the rules. While the Smith is unmistakably based on the former military arm, it has a much larger stock that is mounted in a different manner to a modified receiver, a much thicker and heavier match barrel and a modified trigger. The result is a 13-lb. target-shooting machine that even the most long-suffering GI would hardly have wanted to carry in combat.
Like its progenitor, the M1 Garand, the M14 secures barreled action to stock by a barrel band at the front and by the receiver at the rear. The Smith rifle adds to this a pair of hex screws that engage welded-on lugs at the front and rear of the receiver.
Custom gunsmiths have been double-lugging M14 receivers for several years, but Smith has taken the exercise a bit farther. Its lugs are made from bar stock, welded into position and, after the welds are cleaned up, the lugged receiver is heat-treated as a unit.
The front lug extends forward from the receiver body and partially surrounds the recoil spring and its guide rod. It is drilled and tapped for a 1/4-28 hex screw that angles down and to the rear into the front of the magazine well.
The rear lug is located ?" in front of the extreme rear of the receiver, and its screw extends down behind the trigger assembly. Both screws are drawn into steel bushings.
The trigger itself is government issue, but with the addition of a simple hex screw that limits overtravel by bearing on the rear of the trigger blade. The sample rifle's trigger pull was 4-3/4 lbs., comfortably above the 4-1/2 lb. lower limit prescribed by the rules. The stock is an impressively thick McMillan fiberglass unit that, with folding buttplate and sling swivels installed, weighs 4 lbs., 6 oz. It is uniformly covered with a brown hardened acrylic paint that has a textured finish for good grasping, except for a bit of the steel ferrule at the fore-end.
The stock is much thicker than the government-issue version, reaching 2-5/16" at its thickest point behind the magazine. This is, however, well within the rules laid out in the Defense Department's regulations for National Matches (AR 920-30), that
specify 2-1/2" as the maximum width, with a maximum of 2" just behind the front band.
Smith offers a choice of barrels by Krieger or Obermeyer, both well-known names in the competition field. Regardless of brand, the rifling specification is four-groove, with a rate of one turn in 10". The flashhider is reamed to prevent interference with the bullet's exit. Front and rear sights are of National Match pattern, with a narrow front sight blade and a rear sight equipped with a hooded aperture than can be rotated for half-minute elevation adjustments.
With the exception of the hex stock mounting screws, disassembly of the Smith rifle is identical to that of the Springfield Armory M1A. Those instructions can be found in the NRA Semi-Auto Rifles.
The Smith -14 was fired for accuracy, with results shown in the accompanying table, and function-fired with Federal, Lapua, Norma and Samson ammunition.
There was but one failure; the last round of one magazine popped out along with an ejected case. We were unable to induce this to happen again.
The Smith M-14 is truly a pleasure to shoot. Recoil is hardly noticeable, especially when the shooter is tightly wrapped in a leather highpower jacket. Controlling the shot was a snap thanks to the excellent trigger.
We could find nothing to complain about whatever, and any highpower competitors will find the rifle's price the greatest hindrance to its use.
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
Thanks to everyone for the input.
From my years in coin collecting, I discovered that three variables determine the price on any collectable. Those three variables are 1. Quality (or condition) 2. Desirability (or popularity) and 3. Rarity. There are lots of very rare coins out there that no one collects. So the price is low accordingly. Some coins with much higher mintage figures are more expensive because many people collect them.
Years ago, I would never have thought that people would collect after-market high capacity magazine variations for the Ruger 10/22, but they sure do now days. Example is the Sandford drum. You can buy magazines that do exactly the same thing for less a lot less money, but they are not rare. What makes these popular is not the value of the magazine itself, but the popularity of the 10/22.
So people collect about anything, including aftermarket firearms accessories. Heck, some people are paying good money for sets of scrap, cut in two USGI M-14 receiver halves! And they only get the rear half! And it is my guess that there is some collectors potential in the Smith Ltd (which was factory built, as far as I know). Even if a rifle with a Smith Enterprise forged receiver was not built by Smith Ent, it is still a highly desirable item. And books on M-14 collector's variations bear that out. Now I'm not saying that the Smith Ltd is as desirable as the Smith Ent. But it still might have some future potential.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
There are a lot more Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers than, say, Dan Wession revolvers, yet generally, the Colts and Smiths are a lot more valuable even though a Dan Wesson may be intrinsically a "better" gun. If I were to make a one-of-a-kind gun of fine quality, it would be extremely rare yet of no special value. If I made 200 of the same gun, the value would not likely change much unless my gun was had something that no other gun had. The Tippermann line comes to mind when thinking about low production guns having great value.
The Smith M-14/M1A clones are just one brand of several small makers of M-14/M1A clones made with surplus parts, some of which are of excellent quality, but their value lies in their intrinsic function, not their rarity. They are not like the Tippermann line just because they are low in numbers.
If you are looking for collectable M-14 clones with real appreciation potential, look for "Devine" or the even more rare "San Antonio" Springfield Armory M1A rifles.0 -
i understand you insight but the problem with that philosophy is most people collect M-1A'S for what they can do, not for what they are. m-1a's like yours are for match shooting. the shooter can care less if its a fulton or sa, he wants x's at 600yds all the time. thus, he needs quality and reputation over rarity of maker. collectors of M14's collect them because they are full auto. cut in half and in the publics hands is what makes them rare and collectible, regardless if it has been cut. your gun is incorrectly marked M14. its not an M14 if it doesnt have auto capablity. (the groove, the post underneath, and all the oprods with selector switch.) so, again i will stand on the fact that with the advent of the mouse gun match, M-1a's will fade out in popularity and go cheap as they presently are. 50 years from now? nope, cant agree. look at match M-1 garands. they still require TLC to keep working, can be out shot, but are nice to own. therefore the market isnt in the maker, its what it can do and most people got tired of loading 8 round clips that bounce off foreheads and get lost in tall grass. progress made them old hat. the market shrinks down to just diehards. and thats never a good investment. people change with the wind and so does value. my s.a. all milspec parts match M-1a with a boots 10-1-5R chrome lined bbl, mcmillian stocked, NM modified rifle on the otherhand, will always go up in value. besides only having 10 rounds thru it and log booked from birth, the builder is what will sell the gun. not the receiver maker. i think it goes along the lines as putting new wine in old leather. the day will come when your gun may sell in the future based on what it can do, not the receiver. if anything, the receiver will be a drawback to aged old shooters 50 years from now...heck...i'll be 100 then and still know the difference btwn s.a. and smith and i'll be considered the wise old expert by the young ones of the day! at least i hope so! hope this helps.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.0
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