Colt (Bisley?)
I have come across a single action Colt revolver, Bisley frame, in .38 Special, 7 1/2" bbl., Serial Number 2415XX. The gun, which I've only seen a photo of so far, has only slight traces of original finish, but the original hard rubber grips are decent. It locks up tight and is supposedly mechanically good, and a shooter. The down side is that there are no calibre markings on the barrel, which is marked "Single Action Army", and the botton of the grip frame is drilled for a lanyard swivel(?). It is possible, and fairly likely, that it was re-barreled. Can anyone give me an idea as to date of manufacture, and a possible value? I realize it is not a very good description, but it's all I have right now. Thanks in advance, DaveF.
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Looks like your Bisley was made in 1903. But .38 Special wasn't introduced until 1930. So the revolver was definately rebarrelled. The original barrel would have been marked (Bisley Model) and caliber. The current barrel may be a non-factory replacement?
This used to be common practice to change caliber and you can still find these aftermarket barrels from time to time. Guns were not seen as collector's items back then; just a tool and were used in that way. Kinda like we do with ours now.
As for value, I'm not sure. Maybe one of the more advanced members can help. Probably going to have more value as a shooter than as a collector. But still a fun revolver to shoot! Hope this helps a little!0 -
I'm not a Colt Single Action Army expert, but the Bisley I have seen was in .44-40 w/a 4.75" barrel and does not have any caliber markings on it anywhere. It had "(Bisley Model)" stamped on the barrel atop the words "Frontier Six Shooter."
My reference to "Cartridges of the World" states the .38 S&W Special (.38 Special) was introduced in 1902 along with their Military & Service revolver. The .38 Long Colt was viewed as being unsatisfactory and this was intended to replace it. So, I could not determine from the language and photos available whether or not a .38 Special will chamber/fire adequately in a gun chambered for .38 Long Colt (one of 16 calibers available in a Bisley).
Colt came out with their .38 Colt Special in 1909...long after yours was made. The only difference there was the bullet shape. This makes me suspicious about the ability of a .38 Special to be substituted in a gun designed for .38 Long Colt. It could possibly chamber a .38 Special, but not be safe to discharge? The energy of the .38 Long Colt is substantially less than the .38 Special, so perhaps substitution would potentially be hazardous!
So, this all makes me wonder how sure someone is this was designated a .38 Special and not .38 Long Colt? I'm thinking of the possibility that someone far removed from any knowledge of this gun successfully chambering (in their opinion) a .38 Special and thinking it must be designated as such?
Also, another consideration; there was a "Flattop" Bisley. It was a very limited production run, but your serial number would allow for it. It would NOT have a groove in the backstrap of the frame, would have a dove-tailed rear-sight, a removeable front sight insert, come with a 7.5" barrel, have an all blued finish with, and a case-colored hammer.
I'm not sure whether or not the Flattop would have "(Bisley Model)" stamped on the barrel. The Standard Single Action Army is said to have a "one-line address" in 5.5" & 7.5". So it could be rebarreled with a correct "Single Action Army" barrel. Perhaps the Bisleys in 5.5" and 7.5" did not have any other markings on the barrel? The lack of caliber designation does not surprise me.
In summary; I'm wondering about the .38 Special designation and whether or not Colt marked the 7.5" Bisley barrels any different than the Single Action Army.
Just some food for thought!
The difference would be price of course. From your description of "slight traces of original finish" (does the finish/wear of the barrel or cylinder look different than the rest of the gun?), a hole for a lanyard-ring, and being a "shooter"...I'm thinking an approximate 10% grade per Blue Book. Without a picture its difficult to tell. It could go slightly more. This is all based upon it being in original configuration.
If it's a Flattop...add 50-100% more.
10% - $1000
20% - $1200
30% - $2000
If it is has been rebarreled/chambered...especially in a caliber not available during it's manuf. date; deduct a substantial amount. Correct era re-barrel w/ orig. caliber would be an approximate 25% deduction (in my opinion). If the caliber/cartridge has been changed; I would say a deduction of 50% or more would be appropriate (also my opinion).
For what its worth; although the .38 Long Colt became obsolete and has remained to be out of production, I understand the .38 Short Colt is commercially available (was anyway) and will function correctly in a revolver designed for .38 Long Colt.
Best Regards0 -
Hi tomh. and fort_knox. I really appreciate your replies, and the information you have given me. The gun is about 600 miles from where I am, so I've only seen a photo, and had a brief conversation with it's present owner, who obtained it from an elderly man. The revolver's overall finish on frame, barrel and cylinder is consistent,it is not a flat top,it's registered (I'm in Canada) as a .38 Special, and was apparently shot as a target gun with this ammunition for a lot of years. Since reading your replies. I've checked in my Handloaders Manual of Cartridge conversions, and see that the only real practical difference in dimensions between the .38 Colt Long and .38 Special is that the Colt has a 0.124" shorter case. They also show a suggested Colt load of 3.0gr. Bullseye under a 150gr. lead bullet. As that happens to also be a fairly modest .38 Special target load, and this gun was used for targets, that's probably why the gun is still in one piece if it was built for .38 Colt. I suppose the chambers could have been reamed to accept the longer cases, or maybe they would chamber anyway. I've never owned a single action Colt, let alone a Bisley, but have had a few Blackhawks and a Vaquero, and like single action revolvers. When I learned of this one for well under $500.00 US I figured it was probably too good to be true. I guess it is. Thanks again, DaveF. 0 -
Registration does not necessarily confirm the validity of the caliber in my opinion. Registration occurred long after this was produced. I doubt anyone involved in the actual registration process in a governmental capacity had much expertise, or excercised much scrutiny over such an old handgun. 0 -
Send the $500 without delay. It's a great buy, conversion or not.
The 38 Spl is a hot caliber with the SASS organizations.
I would not write this off as a rebarrel job without further investigation of its' markings. It could very well have been made in 38-44 (a hivel version of the 38 Colt introduced in 1891)) or the 38 Colt. Your gun was made in 1903. For a fee the original caliber and barrel length can be verified.
The lanyard loop was not installed by Colt but many Militas
put these on. There may be State Militia or RCMP markings on the gun.0 -
DaveF-
I was talking to a co-worker yesterday. We discussed the .38 Special/.38 Long Colt issue. He said when he has trimmed his .38 Special brass back too far from slitting at the end, he loads them to .38 Long Colt specs. He is a veteran reloader and said what I proposed about the mistake in caliber designation could very well be likely because of the very close dimensions between the two calibers.0 -
i have several colt bisley's , the barrels are marked with the caliber, frontier six shooter stamped on a colt barrel is a caliber designation , it means 44-40 0 -
quote:Originally posted by rusty3040
frontier six shooter stamped on a colt barrel is a caliber designation , it means 44-40
I didn't know that. Thanks!
Do they all have "(Bisley Model)" stamped on the barrel?
What do you think about the SAA discussed here? Does it sound original? There is no caliber designation, but it appears that Colt only had a "one-line address" on 5.5" & 7.5" barrels. So, where would the caliber designation be located in such a case?0 -
the address is marked on the top of the barrel for both the bisley and saa, i checked a bisley i have with a 4 3/4 barrel and it has a two line address , i also checked a saa with a 4 3/4 barrel and it has a one line address , all of my bisleys and saa's have the caliber on the left side of the barrel near the frame, i doubt if the gun in question is original, although i haven't seen it, i would buy it now and worry about it later 0 -
Gentlemen, I thank all of you for your input. The information given, depth of subject knowledge, and "willingness to get involved" that I have found on this forum in response to this enquiry, and others I have made, will never cease to amaze me. I bought the gun today and hopefully it will arrive within a week or so. I guess I'll find out then just what makes Colts so intriguing. Thanks again, DaveF. 0 -
Rusty- Thanks for the reply.
DaveF- You're welcome. Hope it works out for you. Have fun!
Best0
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