Question regarding Hist. Channel on Soviet guns?
I saw a wonderful program last night on the History of Russian Firearms on the History Channel(Modern Marvels and Tales of the Gun). I thought it was very informative and fun to watch.
One of the statements made was that the AK47 was the most influential firearm of the modern era and that the Russians made the best firearms in the world when it comes to accuracy , dependability, and mass production. It really made me think that as far as firearms are concerned, there are only really three nations that dominate the world in innovation and quality firearm development throughout history. It would seem that they are as follows:
1. Russia
2. United States
3. Germany.
There are other nations known for quality firearms development, like Israel, Italy, Great Britain, and Belgium, but really nothing comes close to the top three.
I was really amazed to learn how much the top three nations contributed to firearms history. Their innovation cannot be touched.
History Channel's Tales of the Gun and Modern Marvels seems to have alot of good contributors and gun historians that help out. They are very animated and know their stuff. Perhaps some of them even contribute on these forums. I look forward to other's feedback and comments on what I have written. Can our own experts comment on the accuracy of the statements made by the History Channel. Is their information exagerated or on target?
Brian Ostro
member: NRA, John Birch Society, American Numismatic Association.
One of the statements made was that the AK47 was the most influential firearm of the modern era and that the Russians made the best firearms in the world when it comes to accuracy , dependability, and mass production. It really made me think that as far as firearms are concerned, there are only really three nations that dominate the world in innovation and quality firearm development throughout history. It would seem that they are as follows:
1. Russia
2. United States
3. Germany.
There are other nations known for quality firearms development, like Israel, Italy, Great Britain, and Belgium, but really nothing comes close to the top three.
I was really amazed to learn how much the top three nations contributed to firearms history. Their innovation cannot be touched.
History Channel's Tales of the Gun and Modern Marvels seems to have alot of good contributors and gun historians that help out. They are very animated and know their stuff. Perhaps some of them even contribute on these forums. I look forward to other's feedback and comments on what I have written. Can our own experts comment on the accuracy of the statements made by the History Channel. Is their information exagerated or on target?
Brian Ostro
member: NRA, John Birch Society, American Numismatic Association.
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I think Belgium should be in that list. 
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History Channel gun programs are good. Mostly good commentators and good commentary. Only problem I note is that they often show a picture of a gun that is different than the one they are talking about. This is a criticism of editing rather than program content itself. 0 -
You can buy these programs thru the NRA or the History Channel. I don't know how many episodes there are, but I already have 18 and get a new one each month from the NRA.
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If you are talking post WWII, then I would remove the United States from your list and replace it with Belgium. The reason for this is the fact that the United States has not had an original idea in small arms development in more then 60 years. The M16 and it's variants in use today can be traced back to a French design of about 1935 which we got by way of Fairchild Aircraft's contacts with the Dutch in the early 60's. The pistol in use today by U. S. forces is, of course, Italian. The only countries to use the M16 type firearms today are those countries who get them for free from the United States.
Belgium on the other hand, came up with an innovative design based on the time proven gas piston system. The result was the famous FN-LAR. This weapons system is in use by over 90 countries world wide.
The Germans also came up with a new innovative design based on the roller locked breach block which was developed in late WWII. This design became the G1 in caliber 7.62X51 NATO and the G33 in caliber 5.56X45 NATO.
The U.S.S.R. was the undisputed champ of firearms innovation in the post WWII era. The AK-47 has been produced by nearly 100 countries and somewhere over 60 million rifles have been made. It has been used in every conflict since 1947 and has proven it's self in every type of terrain imaginable. It does not jam as does the M16. It is very easy to use because the Russians belive in the KISS principle, so that the rifle can be issued to relatively untrained troops. The accuracy of the AK-47 may not be of target grade, but, it is more then adequate for the battlefield.
Being a Viet Nam veteran, I can tell you that if I were to go into combat again I would want to carry either a FN-LAR or the AK-47 as I know that they will not let me down when I need them the most.
So there you have my $0.02.0 -
I have spoke with a few of them personally on the phone ,and they took the time and talked to me ,troy jinks for smith and Wesson was very nice and helpful ,took time looked up a few serial numbers for me and give me production data I needed
QUOTE : Russians made the best firearms in the world when it comes to accuracy , dependability, and mass production.
You must break this statement down ,it doesn't mean they make the most accurate firearm ,it means for a mass produced gun such as the ak ,it is the cheapest {stamped metal}gun to mass produce ,and in its category it is the most reliable and accurate ,this statement cannot be confused as it is the "most" accurate and reliable
But in its class it is ,the hk g3 is stamped as well ,and will be more accurate ,but will likely have a failure before the ak ,but is more expensive
The m16 ,is far more accurate ,but less reliable ,and much,much more expensive to produce
Most of the 3rd world countries do not choose the ak47 for any reason but price ,and in its class cannot be beat
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
Accuracy has never been a priority in Soviet/Russian military thinking and Soviet firearms are make to deliver decent accuracy in the field, but that is all. To build an accurate weapon takes more time and expense than the Soviets could spare and it has just been in the past few years that the Russians, who now have to compete in the world wide firearms market (they can't afford to give the guns away any more) have begun to concentrate on producing accurate fierams. They also have a problem competing against their own 70 + million (?) surplus AK-47's which are floating around at under $100 per unit world wide.
I've traveled around Eastern Europe for about 15 years and have met with dozens highly placed former military men (most living on $100 per month pensions) and their insight into Soviet small arms was quite enlightening. The Soviets during the Great Patriotic War (WWII) were interested in having small arms that were reliable and easy to produce in the MILLIONS and nothing else! Russia had plenty of people for their military and most were simple peasents with little education and there was little time to try to teach someone who cannot read how to operate something as complicated as say the MG-34 used by the German military-- you have to be able to read to figure the thing out. You were dealing with a very different type of recruit when you compare a German infantryman and his Soviet opposite. Simple rifles produced in massive quantities due to inevitable losses and abuse by poorly trained troops in the field were what the Soviets needed and what they got!
After the war things changed slightly in Soviet thinking because there was a huge injection of advanced technology, either captured from the Germans or given to them by the Allies. With the war now over and more time for training and education Soviet troops could be instructed to handle weapons like the new Kalashnikov rifles. The AK may seem to be a very simple design by our western standards, but in Soviet service it was an amazingly advnaced infantry weapon! To go from the Nagant, to the SKS, to the AK-47 within a decade was revolutionary and totally changed Soviet infantry tactics. A platoon of men armed with the new AK-47 could now accomplish the same mission as a company of men still using the ancient Nagant 91/30 and this freed up troops for other types of support service. I could go on forever because I love this subject but I think you get the idea.
I would have to agree with Scout in that it appears firearms design inovation in the United States peaked prior to WWII. Men like John Browning are not entering the field of firearms design these days because there is simply not enough money to be made designing guns. A fellow like Bill Ruger was able to take his basic .22 pistol design and use it as a base to build a firearms company but he made most of his money selling firearms, not designing them, and a large number of his very popular guns, like the Mini-14, were not Ruger designs at all. Stoner used the gas system design principles from the Swedish Ljungman and the rotary bolt from a Melvin Johnson design for the AR-10 which later became the M16. The rifle was inovative, but nothing was revolutionary since it simply joined together a number of existing technolgies into a single rifle. My vote goes to the German designers for continual inovation in firearms designs during the past 100 years...but we cannot forget John Browning! Many of the designs which came from FN were from men who were members of Browning design teams during his days at the factory in Herstal and I'll wager they picked up plenty of ideas from that grand old gentleman!
Mark T. Christian0 -
"One of the statements made was that the AK47 was the most influential firearm of the modern era."
I should think that title should go to the MP43/MP44 & StG44 Sturmgewehr rifles. I also don't understand why people pay for tapes of TV programs. Why not just tape them off the air?0 -
I think there is a difference between the person/country coming up with an idea and successfully producing a weapon. While it may be true that Belgium and Germany (the MP43/MP44 & StG44 Sturmgewehr rifle era) came up with innovative weapon systems, they were not widely adopted enough to be "influential". If we are going all the back to the origin of ideas I'm sure we may find some backyard garage tinkerer who came up with plenty of good ideas in use today that were never put into practical production.
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"I can think of dozens of reasons not to have hi-cap mags, but it's the one reason I can't think of that I need them!"0 -
Mark C, someday I'm going to go through all your posts and use it as the basis for a book.
If you are talking about the whole of firearm history, I don't know how you could overlook Beretta, the oldest firearm manufacturer still doing business. They were building them back in the matchlock and wheelock days! In fact, they were building firearms before any of the three countries you list were even countries.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
For firearms innovation, I would agree in broad strokes but with a few small notations.
Nods to Italy. Some of the first semi auto rifles were made there, and really REALLY similar in action to the M-1 carbine, though I've never examined one in person (italian gun that is) plus the whole history of Beretta, if nothing else.
Nods to Japan. Not innovative, but the Arisaka sure showed quality- strongest of all bolt actions.
Nods to Belgium here as well. Not only for post war designs but for a long history going back to pre-flintlock days.
Lastly nods to austria. Nothing really noteworthy for a while but Mannlicher is from austria. Pretty damn influential guy considering that mannlicher features are still found in new guns today.
"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf0 -
but with out a doubt ,hats off and a prayer for
JOHN MOSES BROWNING
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
jonk,
I wouldn't give too much credit to the Japs for the Arisaka action since they copied it from their (at the time) allies, the Germans.
The bolt on the Arisaka is almost exactly the same as the K98 Mauser.
Charlie
"It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com0
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