never received a reply to this question
A few days or so ago someone here asked whether anyone used a 9mm anymore for self defense. Most said they did not trust the 9mm to have enough power to use as a defensive gun. I agreed but then asked.......
If the 9mm is so wimpy a round then how is it that the standard Russian sidearm is or was the 9 X 18 mm Makarov with a rating of 258 fps? I find it hard to believe Russia would give their troops a crappy caliber as the standard sidearm of the military. Comments?
Bruce
If the 9mm is so wimpy a round then how is it that the standard Russian sidearm is or was the 9 X 18 mm Makarov with a rating of 258 fps? I find it hard to believe Russia would give their troops a crappy caliber as the standard sidearm of the military. Comments?
Bruce
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VERY SIMPLE. TROOPS ARE CHEAPER THAN GOOD GUNS AND GOOD AMMO.
I WOULD RATHER BE DUCK HUNTING.0 -
did'nt the Beretta 9mm replace the colt .45 for our military sidearm of choice?
rick0 -
I believe you mean 258 ft/lbs. The 9x18 PM pistol is not a standard issue weapon. The PM was generally an officer's pistol or a backup weapon for airmen. The Tokarev (ie TT33) was in more general service and chambered either the 9x19 Para or the 7.62x25 Tokarev/Mauser round. In its usage the PM is a decent manstopper as its bullet is light and wide and has a muzzle velocity around 950-1070 fps. When used with JHP ammo it tends to have little penetration but is very explosive. It tends to make shallow craters rather than deep holes. It was also a favorite with the KGB who found it to be sufficient to execute someone without getting gray matter all over their clothes. Inside 25yds it is a surprisingly potent load, past 25yds it's lack of sectional density starts taking its toll and the bullet goes subsonic pretty quick. 
SUPPORT THE I.N.S. , THE COUNTRY THEY SAVE COULD BE YOUR OWN0 -
I agree with KJ, you mean energy, not velocity. I'm gonna be carrying a .380 for CCW when a bigger gun just won't conceal. It is only 9x17 so it's even less powerful than the Makarov. 0 -
Beantole--I have to disagree with the premise that no one trusts the 9mm (I assume you are talking about the 9mm Luger/Parabellum 9x19mm round)anymore as a defense round. On the contrary, this cartridge is enjoying a bunch of new loads based on research over the last few years, and several magazine articles have been written over the last year saying, in effect, "Today's 9mm isn't your Daddy's 9mm." New powders and bullet designs have made the round much more effective than it was years ago; and one could make the observation that as early as 1914 the Kaiser's soldiers were killing lots of the opposition with the round the way it was back then! And they didn't even have Gold Dots, Hydra-Shoks, Starfires, etc. Your Daddy didn't have them either. In fact, I'm going to make a futuristic prediction: The 9x19mm is going to enjoy a resurgence in the next few years with a couple of new handgun designs that will permit a steady diet of +P ammo. Now, quite honestly, I'm a .45 ACP Disciple. But, when the chips were down, I'd much rather have a properly stoked 9x19mm than a 9mm Mak. or a .380.[:D] 0 -
The 9mm which now is looked upon as a weak cal. ,is almost ballisticly the same as a .40 , the .40 is only 1mm larger than the 9mm , the claim to the man stopping power of the .40 cal ,is based only on this 1mm , there is no other scientific reason ,no matter how you debate the two calibers is will always come back to this
Some 9mm's are a bit weaker than the .40 depends on manufacturer; some .40's are a bit higher as well
now with that being understood
the .45 is 5 calibers larger than the .40 ,which would translate into around 2mm
ballisticly the .45 is a bit slower but ,the foot-pounds of energy is equal to the .40 ,but due to the twist of the rifle ,the 2mm larger caliber ,it will expand much larger than both the 9mm and the .40
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
the difference between a nine .36mm and a .40 is still 4 mm not (1).
I WOULD RATHER BE DUCK HUNTING.0 -
No the difference is 1 mm. 9mm .35 vs. 10mm .40 which translates to a 12.5% difference in frontal area.
KC0 -
One of my favorite carry guns is a 9mm Browning High Power. Carried it off and on for over 25 years loaded with Silvertips.
All these numbers people recite, like velocity and energy, make me think of "dead, deader and deadest." An old cop friend of mine used to say, "there are no degrees of dead." He was right.[;)]
Rafter-S0 -
dhunter.... your mixing mm with caliber in decimals.
Actually there is only 1mm between the two. .40 cal is 10mm, 1mm bigger than the 9mm.
"Never let school interfere with your education"0 -
Gonepostal, there's more than just bullet diameter too. There's more powder in the .40 S&W (and more still in the 10mm).
Der Gebirgsjager, there's also a difference in the size of a gun made to chamber the .380 and 9mm luger too so your statement really isn't a fair comparison - we'd all like the more poweful rounds. If I could carry a 9mm that's the size and weight of a Kel-tec I would. I'd rather carry a very small 10mm instead, but if a person could make one that light and small chambered for something that powerful, a person probably wouldn't want to shoot it as the recoil would be horrible.0 -
Bambi's picture of all the fodder is great. Would be perfect if it had .30 Luger, .30 Broom and .38 Super. I would frame it to hang on my office wall. 0 -
Thank you laredo lefty for pointing that out to duck hunter
I have studied ballistics for twenty years now and have paid attention to this particular subject, I remember the day the .40 and the 10mm came out ,
The amount of powder in a factory round plays nothing in this discussion , a .44 magnum has more powder than a 10mm ,this can go on and on
But the argument between 9mm,.357mag,.40,and the .45 ,no matter how you look at it it will all come down to bullet expansion ,the ballistics of these calibers are very close ,sometimes the same depending on manufacturer
More powder more fps .does not mean more expansion ,more penetration maybe ,but however the statement that a .40 has more powder is a fallacy ,but you can load more if you want
The success of the .45 acp ,over the others ,will be narrowed down to
Expansion
Rifle twist
And the most important
CHAMBER PRESSURE
.45 acp
Weight(grains)....Velocity(fps)....Chamber Pressure(psi)
6.0................1,125................19,300
5.8....................1,155................18,800
6.6....................1,165................19,300
6.9....................1,175................19,400
8.5....................1,185................19,100
7.8....................1,190................19,200
.40s&w
Weight(grains}.......Velocity(fps).......Chamber Pressure(psi)
6.0.....................1,140................33,000
5.9.....................1,155................34,000
6.2.....................1,175................33,800
8.2.....................1,215................33,900
8.2.....................1,215................33,300
6.7.....................1,225................34,000
8.0.....................1,245................34,000
9mm
Weight(grains.......Velocity(fps)........Chamber Pressure(psi)
8.3................1,180.....................22,000
6.8................1,225.....................24,400
5.5................1,240.....................25,500
6.0................1,280.....................32,200
5.3................1,285.....................32,100
5.5................1,295.....................31,400
6.5................1,308.....................31,425
7.8................1,445.....................32,900
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0
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