Black Talon
Why do they not make the black talon anymore? Is it Illigal in some states ? Why ?
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Can you guys tell me what is so special about this ammo (other than the price)?! A lot of the ads say "repackaged by Winchester for Law Enforcement Only". Is it legal for me to buy this? Is it really just repackaged or an actual change in the round?Thanks,
cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.0 -
It was volunarily pulled from the shelves by Winchester/Olin to avoid possible litigation that was facing them. Simply put, it was a little overly ambitious advertising combined with public fears to its armor piercing claims.
It does seemingly penetrate better other ammo, but not to the levels of AP ammo.0 -
In addition to litigation, it was the bad press it received as to its flesh damaging properties.However misleading, it was claimed to do horrific damage above and beyond other defense rounds.As the hollow point expanded, the petals appeared as "Talons".
Bambi- It was never touted as an armour piercing round.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob0 -
I somehow recall reading that the Winchester SXT is the same thing, but with a less nasty name. 0 -
It may not have been marketed as an AP round but as a kid I remember equating Black Talons as an AP cop killer. Somehow it acquired that kind of reputation
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"I can think of dozens of reasons not to have hi-cap mags, but it's the one reason I can't think of that I need them!"0 -
I am not sure it was officially claimed to be AP ammo, but because of its penetration claims, its teflon coating (or whatever it was), its color, and such all got it the perceived image of a cop-killer. 0 -
Yep, I was never advertised as AP, even though some people may have thought it was. It was not teflon coated either. It has a black anodizing finish on a copper jacket.
I carried it in my duty gun until we went to the SXT which, as jgreen mentioned, is pretty much the same thing. I still carry BT in my off-duty gun. It does not penetrate police vests either.
As crazy as it sounds I had even heard that the NAACP might have had something to do with the Black Talons demise. They supposedly objected to the name claiming it was intended to shoot only black people. What a rediculous assumption.
"Never let school interfere with your education"0 -
I sold many cases when they were available.The Black Talon was not a coated bullet. It operated on the same principles as any hollowpoint. Upon contact with tissue it will expand to a greater diameter.The difference with the Black Talon was that the bullet itself was scored so that expansion resulted in six petals that acted like claws. These claws caused "Cutting" damage as well as shock in the permanent wound cavity.The round was developed to expend its energy within the body cavity, so as not to over-penetrate.It was a favored choice of LEOs.
Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
Lefty-Your reply wasn't there when I posted. Interesting you mentioned the vests. One of the complaints my LEO customers had was that the round would barlely penetrate a car door.Some jokingly said that since they wore a vest, if they had to be shot they wished the bad guy would buy the Hype and the Talons!.They were designed for immediate expansion, and that they did.
Bambi- Lubaloy[x] is a simple copper wash applied to bullets to minimize bore buildup. It is not an aid to penetration such as teflon or Nyclad.0 -
You guys don't remember Chuckie Schumer proselytizing on the steps of Congress that those Black Talons would shoot through a Wallyworld, killing everyone inside, then shred its' way through Level III vests of any responders? What about the hysterical claims made by all those "trauma surgeons" about its' ability to slice and dice with razor-sharp talons of steel, and then almost disappearing under an X-ray?
They were great designs, aggressively marketed, and became legendary before their time.
Wish I had some in 357Sig!
If you know it all; you must have been listening.<br>WEAR EAR PROTECTION!0 -
As originally designed, it was a high performance hunting/defense round. The press got ahold of it and as the clouds of ban loomed in congress (it was in the days of Clinton), Winchester withdrew it from the market and would only sell to the law enforcement market as Ranger . If I remember correctly, Winchester found that it had some failures during hunting, so again redesigned it even better. Remember , most of these were not Magnum cartridges, save the .357 and 10mm. The PMP Starfire, the Rem. Golden Sabre and the Hornady Gold Dot were all made to expand fully at lower, more controllable velocities and function similiarly. The description of sharp wound producing appendages got the AMA, the press and the liberals all stoked to ban ammo. 0 -
They did make the Black Talons in .44 mag also (I had a case of it and 10mm). The coating was called either Lubalox or Lubaloy (I can't quite make it out). How they apply it I haven't the faintest idea.
I'll say it was as much hype as anything else.
The Black Talon's name was dropped on thier rifle line and it simply became known as Fail-safe (ironically, that name was on the box all along). Another irony, they are made for maximium penetration and aren't really for whitetails. I used 'em for years but dropped them when my .300 mag wouldn't do what my brother-in-law's .270 would do with other bullets.
Oh, Hangfire... I only saw it on the failsafe's and the talon's so I assumed that it was the black coating. I heard it was better on the bore, that's why I originally used them.0 -
I heard that the bullet used by Starfire was actually the same as the fabled Black talon without the coating. I have a box in 9mm somewhere. 0 -
As you can tell by some of the responses on this thread that the bullet itself had many different perceptions all mostly caused by the hype machine and misinformation.[:D] 
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Bt's were around for years before the gun grabbing press associates got a hold of it in its fired form and cut a notch in their belt on how evil general gun owners must be to want to carry such a deadly round ,then Winchester voluntarily quit producing them for a bit of P.R. work
As far as its likeness of a a.p. round couldn't be further from the truth ,armor piercing rounds are loaded hot ,black talons must be sub sonic to expand properly ,load them hot and they become equal to fmj
The only thing they have in common is exploitation from the press , even A.P. that has been labeled "cop killer" for decades now ,only one cop was ever killed by a A.P. round and he was shot in the head back in the early seventies
yep its me ,same one for 4 years now0 -
Ahead of it's time, victim of the "anti-frenzy", corporate cave in.
If brought out today ... would have "PC" name and be marketed as a "safety" design, etc., etc., etc.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!0 -
The Starfire bullets are indeed the same and much cheaper. It has always angered me that the talons were critized for being effective at what they were intended to do. A self defence round that would put down a bad guy without blowing through the walls and killing the kid sleeping next door. I think it was a great product and am glad I still have mine. I suppose shooting a bad guy with them would certainly land you in court, but that probably beats the alternative.
He Dog0
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