WWI .45ACP Rounds
My son works part time at our largest indoor range
here, in San Diego. He brings home some pretty
neat stuff to run across the 'old man' ... here's the
latest.
As you can see it's a halfmoon clip of WWI .45ACP.
John said, that an 'old guy' came in and told them that
he didn't want any ammo in his house anymore - this
had to go! He asked them to take it.
He also said, that this was among his father's WWI
keepsakes and that he carried them throughout '18.
The UMC rounds are common enough but I can't recall
seeing the lead USCCO 45 AR round before.
I posted this on 'experts,' too.
Any comments?
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish,
and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
here, in San Diego. He brings home some pretty
neat stuff to run across the 'old man' ... here's the
latest.
As you can see it's a halfmoon clip of WWI .45ACP.
John said, that an 'old guy' came in and told them that
he didn't want any ammo in his house anymore - this
had to go! He asked them to take it.
He also said, that this was among his father's WWI
keepsakes and that he carried them throughout '18.
The UMC rounds are common enough but I can't recall
seeing the lead USCCO 45 AR round before.
I posted this on 'experts,' too.
Any comments?
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish,
and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
0
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the 45 AR didn't come about until after ww1. brought out in 1922 by peters. It was made so that you didn't have to use the half moon clips to keep the headspace, and still be able to extract them.
.0 -
Ah, that explains it - I know that lead bullets were
not 'allowed' in WWI ... although, I understand they
were used on the sly.
Thanks!0 -
USCCO was US Cartridge Company (non-GI issue) and AR refers to it being .45 Auto Rim instead of .45 ACP. It has a semi rimmed case that's designed for use in the old 1917 revolvers without the need for half moon clips. 0 -
Yep - right again!
Upon closer inspection you're right!
It's jammed into the clip.
I used to have a handle on life, and then it broke.0 -
that 45 AR brass is hard to find and in demand. how much did you get? bunches should fetch a nice penny. 0 -
A very interesting find of old cartridges. I don't think the story is exactly accurate about the father of the gentleman who brought these items to your son kept these throughout 1918, however.
According to Cartridges of the World, 10th Edition, the 45 auto rim or AR was introduced in 1920 by Peters as mentioned by others previously. Therefore, the 45 AR was not born in 1918 or WWI. It is also out of place in a half moon clip. While the cannelure of the cartridge can fit the clip, the presence of the rim negates the use of the clip. The half moons were made for 45 ACP ammo. Also USCCo, as mentioned previously, stands for the United States Cartridge Company and was in business from 1864 to 1938. That places the date of manufacture of this cartridge between 1920 and 1938. USCCo. was bought by Winchester. The 45 AR was normally loaded with a lead bullet to reduce barrel wear since the use of FMJ bullets wore the "softer" steels of the time. This would be a commericial loading and not a military issue in my opinion.
As for the 45 ACP cartridges, REM-UMC stands for the Remington - Union Metallic Corporation. UMC was in business as early as 1867 until 1911. In 1911 UMC combined with Remintion under the REM-UMC headstamp until 1934. Dupont bought out REM-UMC and Peters in 1934, to form the Remington Arms Company as it stands today. Therefore, the 45 ACPs would have been manufactured sometime between 1911 and 1934, which means they could have been made sometime during WWI. These look like the bullets are of the tinned type opposed to the cupronickel type indicating they are an older cartridge.
I am suspecting that these 45 ACP cartridges are not of military origin either due to their headstamps. USCCo did load ammunition under contract for the US military during WWI, History of Modern U.S. Military Samll Arms Ammunition. However, the headstamp for military contract ammmuntion usually carried the contractor's name, such as USCCo, and the year of manufacture, i.e., "17" for 1917 or "3-17" for March 1917. Additionally, much of the military ammo had a primer sealer as evident in the photo below. I didn't notice a sealer on the above photos. Since the 45 ACP in the moon clip does not have this headstamp format, my guess is that these are also of commercial manufacture from the same era as the 45 AR and were placed into the half moon at a later time.
Please don't think I am disparaging your find. These are some fine old specimens of cartridges, not valuable, but good examples of the era and if I came into contact with them I would add them into my collection and use them as either keepers or traders.
Regards,
Heavyiron
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
bobski....45 Auto rim is available through Starline and I think Top Brass is making it now too. It's the reason I bought a 1955 Smith Target revolver, I don't like moon clips. 0 -
Thanks Heavyiron! Good research! Thanks again!
Well, in all fairness, it was handed over by the guy's son ... if
his daddy was about 18 (which dates him with a 1900 birth
date - my grandfather was born in '95 and fought in W.W.I).
Anyway, when dad came home at the end of '18 junior
probably came along in '19 or '20.
That'd make the guy who handed them over to my son about
85 years old! I'll allow for a faulty memory or ignorance of
what they really were.
If I'm even still above the sod at 85 I doubt I'll even know my
own NAME! LOL
I've only got another 25 years to go!
These were the only three handed over.
[:D]
"Leaving sex to the feminists is like letting
your dog vacation at the taxidermist."
Camille Paglia0 -
for you reloaders just remember those AR loads ar not the same as acp. close, but not exact. read closely when you load.
im happy to hear ar is being made again. it was hens teeth in the 80's.
zip, make a name plate with a string. put your name on it and your address.
when you turn 85, put it around your neck when you go for a walk. you wont have to remember anything!
hey zip...what part of SD you living in? i use to live in poway, clarmont mesa, santee, and pacific beach when i was a sailor.0 -
Clairemont Mesa area, 805 & Balboa, north of Mesa College.
When were you here? If it's been a while, you'd probably surprised
at all of the changes in San Diego.
Sorry to hear about your dad - lost my mom in Mar. - did the 300
miles round trip up to West Hills, countless times. Ten of those is
the same as driving to New York City ... in LA traffic! It's tough but
one day when you see him again he's going to have a big grin of
appreciation on his face and welcome you with a hearty, "Thanks, son!"
I'm sure that'll make up for all the pain, many times over!0
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