casting lead Bullets
a friend has asked me if there would be a problem using lead cast bullets [45/70 rifle]in Micro-Grove barrel such as Marlins barrels... has anyone any comments on the matter that would be helpful .
[:)] Thanks Rich G,......
confused....but learning
[:)] Thanks Rich G,......
confused....but learning
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A. hard alloy (linotype is best)
B. slower powders (4198, 3031)0 -
Gas checks help also. I have had Zero leading issues with my Marlin 35 rem with 200 grain gas checked bullets at 2000 fps. I use Liquid alox lube. yes it is stick and messy, but very effective. I used RE7 powder.
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I tried them in my Marlin 45-70 and I could not get any accuracy with them. Someone else may have had better luck, but I gave up and load only jacketd bullets for it. 0 -
thanks guys i'll relay the messagaes i think he was more worried about fouling the barrel up in what ever means 'Micro-groove' ...
being he is casting his own lead thanks Rich G,.....[:)]
confused....but learning0 -
Ric,
Here is one of a series of letters/responses that I found in my notes regarding the shallower "Micro Groove" rifling employed by Marlin. We used to refer to this style of rifling as "Micro Scratch" as a joke. The folks that didn't want to experinment enough to get good results switched to Ballard style or deeper rifling. The keys that we found were sufficiently larger diameter bullets, longer bearing surface and appropriate velocities.
#"Micro-groove", like polygonal rifling in some pistols, is very
#shallow. This can lead to serious leading problems when shooting cast
#bullets, particularly at any type of velocity. In the Marlin guns this
#is primarily a problem with the guns chambered in .45-70 as that
#cartridge is more likely to be used with cast bullets than most of the
#other normal loadings. For this reason Marlin now offers the .45-70
#guns with Ballard style cut rifling.
Experienced cast bullet shooters who have come to understand the
strategies needed to make them shoot well in any other rifle use cast
bullets in micro-groove barrels with the same success. Some writer once
said that the micro-groove barrels do not handle cast bullets well and it
became conventional wisdom (I saw it in print so it must be). Some
writers, seeming to have no idea what it takes to get reasonable cast
bullet performance, throw some loads together using cast bullets. If
they happen to stumble on the right load, it is just by chance. If one
will spend the time to learn how to make cast bullets shoot well,
micro-groove barrels are no particular challenge.
I would have not ever suspected that cast bullets do not shoot well in the
micro-groove barrels if I had not read it in the glossies who were, again,
pushing old wives tales. It is patently obvious that the majority of the gun
writers have not the foggiest when it comes to understanding what it takes to
shoot cast bullets well, although Veral Smith is finally having some influence
on a couple of them.
My 1895SS micro-groove shoots even pure lead bullets at the old .45-70
velocities without leading. If you are having leading induced
inaccuracy, it is likely from an undersized bullet, powder not matched to
bullet velocity (use the slowest powder suitable to the velocity wanted),
or too hard (or too soft) a bullet for the velocity being developed. It
is all in the technique, which holds true for any rifling design. I
think even Marlin has swallowed this nonsense about the micro-grooves --
or perhaps it is just to feed on those who are gullible enough to have
done so.
I have found that no special requirements are necessary for good
performance of cast bullets in micro-groove barrels. This is reinforced
by the NRA report that, when well executed, there is no superior or
inferior rifling type. However, one must use the knowledge that we have
gained in the last 20 or so years, knowledge that was either lost or not
ever realized by the old time shooters. The number one consideration is
bullet size. The driving bands should be no more than .0005" under the
chamber's throat diameter, and the nose should be a moderate force fit
into the rifling. This last can be checked by inserting the bullet nose
into the gun's muzzle. If the nose enters easily, the nose is too small
in diameter.
********************************
#This is the same reason that Glock
#and some other European pistol makers don't recommend (or in some cases
#strongly advise against) the use of cast bullets in their guns. The
#shallow rifling tends to not be able to hold the bullets and they "skid"
#down the barrel. This results in two effects. First, since they don't
#engage the rifling completely, the bullets may not properly spin and
#stabilize, leading to inaccuracy, tumbling, etc. Second, when the
#bullet "skids" it tends to shave lead off and fill up the rifling,
#leaving you with a smoothbore barrel.
Have you ever measured the depth of micro-groove rifling and compared it to
"conventional" rifling?
While the height of the lands results in about 75% of the driving surface
per land compared to conventional rifling, the number of lands in most
instances more than makes up for the smaller height. At the opposite
extreme consider the 2 groove Springfield barrels that have such an
outstanding reputation for being cast bullet shooters. The amount of
driving surface is at a bare minimum and no one complains about skidding
with this barrel. Incidentally, I have two friends who have 9mm and .45
ACP Glocks. All they shoot is lead - and with no problems.
I personally doubt that skidding is a problem at all with the velocities
used by the vast majority of cast bullets shooters given half way decent
bullet alloy selection. Over the years I have seen articles that,
depending on who was writing them, varied from claiming that skidding was
the worst of evils to those who stated categorically that it cannot
happen, and supplied computer generated stress analysis diagrams to
support that claim. I have tried to skid bullets and have not been
successful. At least sometimes those who attribute slightly widened
grooves of cast bullets to skidding are looking at the results of flame
cutting due to undersized bullets.
I have a 7 Mauser Remington rolling block that is so worn that, as close
as I can measure, the lands stand all of .0015" tall -- and are very
rounded! Back when I did not know better, I assumed that it would not do
well with either cast or <the other kind>. However, it did so well with
<the other kind> that I decided to try cast. Groups were virtually
identical with oversized cast; 1 1/2 to 2" at 100 yards - and that with
those turn of the century military sights and 65 year old eyes.
My ancient .47-70 rolling block takes .462+" bullets to realize its best.
Its lands are about .002" high.
My 1895SS .45-70 micro-groove needs .460+" bullets or groups open to 3-4".
Same for my .45-70 Contender.
*************
#This also tends to raise chamber
#pressures due to the fact that the effective diameter of the barrel is
#decreased.
My experiments using Ken Water's method, show that for cast bullets of 13-15
BHN alloy, no pressure increases are generated when using bullets up to .006"
over bore diameter. I stopped at .006" because larger bullets would not
chamber with sufficient neck clearance required for safe bullet release.
************
God Bless!
Norm
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I have never understood this controversy. Marlin's Micro-groove rifling certainly was accurate with .22 lead bullets. In regards to shallow rifling Harry Pope's rifling is very shallow and produces the smallest lead bullet groups of all rifling styles I've tried. I have a 280 Ross with Lancaster oval bore rifling (that looks like there is no rifling) that will shoot 1 1/4" groups with hard cast lead bullets at 2100fps, and Medford rifling which is also extremely shallow is great with lead bullets. 0 -
I don't think that marlin has "swallowed" the theory that microgroove barrels will not shoot lead. I think they just caved to public perception, and the need to make guns that all of the new "Cowboy" shooters will buy. The new "Ballard" cut barrels have less than half the depth of the older cut barrels. My new Ballard rifled 1894 in 44 mag has A 6 groove barrel with depth only .002 deeper than my older Micro gun. The Micro shoots lead just as well, but I have to use 431 bullets, where the "ballard" will shoot 429's
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Anybody that can't get lead to shoot in a Marlin should stroll on over to Beartooth Bullets and read what Marshall Stanton has to say about cast. At the same time try ordering some of Marshall's fine bullets.
If they won't shoot, your rifle is worn out.
It ain't what you shoot, it's what you hit.0 -
Agree completely with the "old wives tale" view. Size the projectile to match the bore of the rifle (ideally, JMHO, .0005 - .003" over, depends on the barrel), add a gas check if one wants to push the velocity a tad and work up a load. Marlins shoot just fine with lead, thank you very much. Never got into it as deeply as nononsense's sources (never was that concerned about it given that common sense loading produced good results for me, if not optimum ones) because I was loading for 150 yard meat guns . . . 3-4" group will put meat on the table. The .5 MOA stuff is for longer distances, varmints & paper - again, JMHO. Ever seen a 150 yard shot in the NH woods? Didn't think so! [;)]
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
Certainly this thread has some great info on cast bullets. It does take a bit of "tinkering" to get a bullet and load for your rifle (or handgun). Different alloys, different powders and weights of them, different lubes, gas check or not, L.O.A., different sizing diameters. All must be tried till you get the right "load". Thats all part of the reloading "game". If you cannot go to all this trouble for the sake of
accuracy then stick to "factory made" or hit and miss from reloading books.0
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