On Barrel Bulges, Rough Bores, etc.
Just a thought. I love a smooth bright bore with sharp rifling as much as the next guy, but I've also found any number of rifles and handguns that shoot far better than the condition of the barrel would suggest. Sometimes it pays to do a little experimenting and find out just how serious a handicap a rough bore, bulge, or headspacing problem really is.
Rob
Rob
Rob
Rob
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I've found that true but my jury's out on rough barrels and lead bullets. 0 -
A rough bore is one thing (and many of them will shoot quite well), but a bulged barrel or a headspace problem is all together different... especially if you are talking about a moderate to high pressure cartridge. Because safety is of paramount concern, it is not wise to advocate shooting a firearm with either a bulged barrel or a headspace problem[V]
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!0 -
I have a .22 with a bulged barrel; all I will shoot from it is powderless Aguila ammo, which is fine plinking in my basement!
I have guns with headspace issues. I shoot them all the time with brass fireformed to the chamber, then only necksized. No trouble.
I have a lot of guns with rough bores. Some shoot great. I also shoot cast lead out of some of them; they shoot better than jacketed in a lot of cases, though require a lot more cleaning.
I have a few guns with ringed barrels too, which is as I understand, a mild form of bulge. No problems with those, either.
So I agree. Bore condition is important, but you might be surprised on what an old worn looking gun can do.
"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf0 -
One year while competing in the Soldier of Fortune 3-gun in Las Vegas my team members and I were cleaning our guns after the first day of competition.
We discovered a bulge in the barrel of my friends Glock 17, he did not know of the bulge. We had no spare barrels and did not want to psych him out, so we put it back together and did not tell him until the match was over.
The gun shot just fine the remaining 3 days of competition.
Joe
"Never let school interfere with your education"0 -
Intesting comments all around. After jonk's contribution, I really have nothing to add!
Catch y'all next time.
Rob
Rob0 -
I had a Remington 25 in 32-20 with a rough bore and a great trigger. It was slick, light, accurate and a favorite shooter. When a mint one came along, I sold the original and regretted it ever since.
The new one isn't as accurate even with a perfect bore.
Army criteria for barrel serviceability was headspace, throat erosion, ringed barrel or pitting that spanned the width of a land or groove.
Roughness wasn't one of them.
As RCrosby says it would be an interesting (and expensive) project to quantitatively evaluate the effects of each of these factors on accuracy and safety.
I suspect Govt arsenals may have this data.0 -
I have had rough bores on rifles that shot well. I recently sold a 1917 enfield 30/06 that would shoot with most out of the box factory rifles and it had a pitted, dark bore and a frosted throat. The rifling was strong on it though. I had a 1917 S&W .45acp revolver that had a rather badly pitted bore in it and I won several bowling pin matches with it using 225 grain flat nosed lead bullets. The point being some rough and pitted bores will shoot well while others will not. I think that what really matters in this condition is how sharp is the rifling? My experience anyhow. Jim 0 -
Robert,
"Sometimes it pays to do a little experimenting and find out just how serious a handicap a rough bore, bulge, or headspacing problem really is."
Being an educator, you should recognize the need for reason and safety to go hand-in-hand. After all, you wouldn't want your students to misinterpret your statements, then go off and get hurt in an accident that could have been prevented.
It does NOT pay to do even a little experimenting with bulged barrels or firearms that have headspace problems. This is not only common sense but a matter personal and public safety. Firearms with bulged or ringed barrels have been fired with an obstruction in the barrel and the barrel has stretched outward, in essence, creating a weak point in that barrel. Firing that barrel again is asking for the potential of catastrophic failure such as a burst barrel.
"To avoid a bulged or burst rifle barrel, make certain that no debris or foreign object gets stuck in the muzzle (or anywhere else in the barrel bore - ed). Even large amounts of water can cause a barrel burst." - Rocky Raab -
From SAAMI
BARREL, RINGED
A barrel that has been fired while containing an obstruction. The resultant excessive radial pressure causes a circumferential bulge in the barrel. See also Barrel, Bulged.
BARREL, BULGED
A barrel with an abnormal enlargement in its bore due to a bullet being fired with the barrel containing an obstruction. See Barrel, Ringed.
Firearms with headspace problems, which can occur for multiple reasons, should not be fired at all until checked by a trusted and/or certified gunsmith. Sometimes headspace can be corrected safely (setting barrels back) while other causes can't be corrected safely ever (severe lug setback). The potential of catastrophic failure is huge and definitely not worth taking a chance. Take it to a gunsmith.
Anecdotal information doesn't do anyone any good at all. Folks want to post their exceptions to basic rules of safety as if they are immune to the potential failures, thus changing the context of safety related issues, making it seem as if it is acceptable to override the safety rules. Getting away with something such as this is not a matter of if something is going to happen but when it will happen. It is totally unacceptable to override basic rules of safety.
It might sound as if it makes sense to modify your brass to correct a headspace problem but it doesn't correct the reason for the headspace problem in the first place. You need to know the cause first then determine if it's safe to make a correction with the brass cases. The biggest problem is that most average shooters don't have this knowledge of case manipulation to say that this is an acceptable risk. The headspace needs to be corrected in case the firearm gets into the hands of another uninformed shooter. It's a risk not worth taking.
I know that this sounds really disagreeable but there should never be a compromise where safety is a concern.
Best.
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Technical evaluation has in the term the implied statement that proper safety precautions will be taken.
Also in safety evaluation, testing to destruction is implicit in order to apply an appropriate factor of safety.
Engineering tests aren't for the uninformed or undisciplined.
Ringed barrels often occur from bullets pushing a wave of oil or grease in the bore and overriding it, bulging the barrel at that point. Snow in a barrel end may also do it.
Modern (post WW2) barrel steels are high quality and tough, not brittle. They are bent, straightened and otherwise deformed during the manufacturing process so a minor bulge in itself wont weaken the steel. However, a bullet entering the bulge may expand and size down
increasing pressure momentarily.
I would seriously doubt that any harm would derive from shooting a 22
caliber lightly ringed barrel because they are thick walled and the 22 is a low pressure round. High pressure cartridges could well be a different story.
SAAMI makes good points about headspace.0 -
None of this discussion had any application to either engineering process, scientific process or engineering testing. It's been directed towards the reloader and shooter. There was nothing implicit about the engineering (technical or otherwise) or the safety in the previous statement: "Sometimes it pays to do a little experimenting and find out just how serious a handicap a rough bore, bulge, or headspacing problem really is."
If this was simply a point aimed at the .22 LR, I wouldn't have taken the time to write to the extent that I did. It is the application to other incidents of centerfire ammunition and firearms and a blatant lack of observance of safety that I object to. The attitude of "see, it didn't happen to me!" needs to be ignored rather than celebrated.
"They are bent, straightened and otherwise deformed during the manufacturing process so a minor bulge in itself wont weaken the steel."
I'm not sure what barrel makers you've been studying but the dozen or so professionals that I know and work with don't do anything of the sort. But these are the cream of the crop not the junkers.
No one should take offense to the fact that Safety should be the first priority.0
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