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Desire info/history of old shotgun & rifle

gunNstuffer
I'm new to this forum/computer stuff so bear with me. I have a couple old firearms I would like info/history and if possible if they have any collector value.
1.a double barrel side lock with hammers 12ga.shotgun.The lock also has a square bar that protrudes left side of receiver when open.Printed on top of barrels & inlayed in gold reads Eprouve' A La Poudre Pyroxye'e.Reveiver heavily engraved & printed & also embelished with gold is Acier Cockerill.Forearm & stock checkered.Underside of left barrel is 17.6 & right 18.4.Barrels appear to be 24 5/8inches & the serial number is 135204.

2.A single shot rifle that has an unusual action. A lever under forearm swings port, the barrel then slides forward then breaks to open.The receiver is heavily engraved, and reads Frankfort H.O. W. Collath.Underside of barrel is 7.7mm.Rifle is equipped with sling swivels & checkered, rounded pistol grip,monte carlo w/cheakpiece stock.The rifle serial number is 1532172/28.
Any help would be most appreciated.
Regards,
gunNstuffer
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Comments

8 comments

Date Votes
  • captkirk3@dslextreme.com
    COLLATH was a Trade Name used by Teschner-Collath of Frankfurt, Germany, c. 1930
    The Square Bar You discribe sounds to Me like a Cross Bolt Locking System on the Cockerill...Purdy of London was one of the first to used the Cross Bolt Lock on Double Guns along with the Push Button Forearm....The Eprouve' A La Poudre Pyroxye'e. Reveiver is telling You in French that the Reciever is Tested and Proofed for Improved Smokeless Powder...As for the Maker....? I can find No Maker in My Database listing Cockerill....Maybe when Hedog comes online he can help You with the Name........Be nice if You could post a couple of Photos.........

    Captain Kirk, Tech Staff
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  • nord
    I can't say much for the rifle but the shotgun is interesting. At first blush I'd say French. A better chance, though, of being Belgian.
    Remove the barrels and have a look for proofs. If Belgian, then you'll find "ELG" in one form or another.

    Acier is steel. Cockerill is the type of steel. Thus you have a gun with fluid steel tubes proofed for "white powder" I use this term because we're speaking of a less powerful powder than produced today and I have reservations about safety.

    Engraving or etching? (I'm betting the latter and hoping for the former.)

    Age and value? Not really enough information, but probably made just before WW1 (best guess) and not worth much more than any other utility gun of that vintage. Usually about $200.00 or so.

    Nord
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  • He Dog
    I would guess Belgian as well. Can't get to the books until tonight, but I will see what I can find then.
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  • He Dog
    Wm Collath was building shotguns in Frankfurt about 1880. Presumably the company continued at least into the 1930's as a smokeless rifle could not date to the '80's. As nord says, be very careful about using modern smokeless powders with this rifle, it may not be safe.

    It appears nothing on the shotgun gives much clue to manufacturer. I think it is likely the "French" appearing shotgun was made in Belguim. Look for the "ELG" under the forarm, that will pin it to Belguim. Many shotguns built in Belgium were "knockoffs" if you will, of fine British guns, which may explain the square bar. If it is Belgian, value is likely to be modest, $100-$250 depending upon condition and embellishments. It is also likely to be a black powder gun and should be used only with blackpowder and only after being thoughly checked by an experienced gunsmith. Sorry we cannot help more.
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  • 11b6r
    Acier Cockerill is French for "Steel Rooster", but the term actually refers to steel made by J. Cockerill, a respected Belgian steel maker. [?]

    Friends help you move. REAL friends help you move BODIES!
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  • CountryGunsmith
    The shotgun is certainly Belgian.

    Cockerill is not just "a" steelmaker in Belgium, they are THE steelmaker in Belgium and are still in business to this day although they are on hard times currently. That barrel set would only have been used on a high-quality shotgun and it certainly should not be confused with the typical 'Damascus' or fluid-steel barrels found on Belgian clunkers.

    Look carefully at the underside of the barrels near the chamber. You are going to see a bunch of numbers and markings, but pay attention to the number that measures chamber length in millimeters. Hope for '70' which is 2 3/4". '65' is the older 2 1/2" standard. If you have a 70mm chamber, there is hope that the gun may actually be usable with low-pressure modern ammunition (have it checked out by a gunsmith that knows older doubles first).

    I would place manufacture in the 1900 range, and depending on quality of manufacture, wood and engraving the value would be higher than the figures quoted. Not all Belgian doubles are clunkers, after all.


    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
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  • CountryGunsmith
    Oh, almost forgot the rifle!

    You undoubtedly have a 'stalking rifle' built on the ingenious Collath action. Although Collath guns are more typically doubles (either traditional shotguns or combination guns/drillings), the single-shot stalking rifles are also of exceptional quality. Depending on condition, you are looking at values greater than $1000 with a relatively easy sale.

    Would benefit to have a chamber cast made to precisely identify the chambering.

    Those are some nice pieces you have. Take care of them!




    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
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  • gunNstuffer
    Boy! Many thanks to you guys for the information. It is very helpful, and I will do my best to keep them in good shape. I have no plans to fire either weapon, but I appreciate very much your comments with regard to safety.
    My wife and I recently purchased a digital camera. As soon as we learn how to use the darn thing I'll try to send off some pictures. In the meantime I'll look for the proof marks youall mentioned.
    Thanks again.
    Regards, gunNstuffer
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