dlrjj...a corection and some movie gun history
I watched the Movie ..Last Stand at Saber River again and then did some research. You only ever get one good glimpse of the cylinder on Selleck's gun but it does apper to have the conversion ring. The Grip frame however is the 1860 Army style so that makes it a conversion. I then dug out my book...Metallic Cartridge Conversions by R. L. Wilson, " The" authority on these things. He shows pictures of the actual guns used it the movie which are conversions.
Now the glitch....The movie was dated as taking place in 1865. Smith and Wesson held the patent on bored through cylinders until 1869. In 1871 Colt was asigned the Richards patent from Richards. Commericial production did not start until 1872. It was then manufactured at the same time as the 1871-72 Open Top Revolver.
While this may seem strange to have both in production at the same time remember a conversion cost around 5 dollars where a new gun could be 15 or 20. Serious price difference at the time.
They took poetic liscense in the movie passing it off as a local gunsmith's convrsion which would have been extremely unlikely. I'm not completely feble minded though...lol...Selleck did use an Open Top in another movie....Crossfire Trail.
The rifle Caradine used was an 1865 Spencer which loaded through the butt stock , holding 7 rounds. taylors and Company handles reproductions in easily aquired center fire rounds. They are around 15-1600 retail. I've never handled one but am told the are very well made.
So there it is...we figured it out and cleaned it up...thatks for peeking my interest, I enjoy researching such things.
Now the glitch....The movie was dated as taking place in 1865. Smith and Wesson held the patent on bored through cylinders until 1869. In 1871 Colt was asigned the Richards patent from Richards. Commericial production did not start until 1872. It was then manufactured at the same time as the 1871-72 Open Top Revolver.
While this may seem strange to have both in production at the same time remember a conversion cost around 5 dollars where a new gun could be 15 or 20. Serious price difference at the time.
They took poetic liscense in the movie passing it off as a local gunsmith's convrsion which would have been extremely unlikely. I'm not completely feble minded though...lol...Selleck did use an Open Top in another movie....Crossfire Trail.
The rifle Caradine used was an 1865 Spencer which loaded through the butt stock , holding 7 rounds. taylors and Company handles reproductions in easily aquired center fire rounds. They are around 15-1600 retail. I've never handled one but am told the are very well made.
So there it is...we figured it out and cleaned it up...thatks for peeking my interest, I enjoy researching such things.
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T;hank you. You guys are the greatest. 0 -
Why don't You Post your research on the 'DID YOU KNOW' Locked Topic portion of the Ask the Experts Forum....I personally found Your Topic to be very interesting...Detail what it was You wanted to know and then List all Avenues of Research and Results....Then submit it for Perusal to Hedog down in the South Pacific.....He's got nothing better to do than sit around and swat Mosquitoes and Watch Them Cute Native Girls with the Bone in thier Noses and Short Banana Leaf Skirts......Best........
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
shooter93;
Thanks for the update and the information. I was aware Colt had some problems getting past the S&W owned Rollin White patent for the bored-through cylinder and they tried some unusual things to bypass it. The Thuer conversion with tapered center fire metallic cartridges that loaded from the front of the cylinder was one of the more unusual and least successful efforts tried from about 1868-1872. It used interchangeable cylinders so that it could still be used as a cap and ball if the Thuer ammunition was not available. They also made a .44 rimfire version (similar to the Henry .44) that seems to have been marketed mainly in Mexico. It was the last of their wedge retained barrel models, but did have a grip nearly like the Peacemaker.
I enjoyed the discussion - nice to converse with someone who doesn't rant - and hope to be able to do it again on another topic sometime.
"Tax evasion is illegal; tax avoidance is an art form"0 -
Good write-up. Your post says "The Grip frame however is the 1860 Army style so that makes it a conversion." Maybe I'm confused but if the issue is whether it is a conversion or the 1871-72 Open Top, the Open Tops can be either with 1860 Army type grip or that like the 1851 Navy. I once had one with the Army grip and now have one with Navy grip. Conversion ring would make it a conversion for sure because the O.T. had a different frame that eliminated the need for the conversion ring, since it was produced new as a cartridge piece. 0 -
you're right rhmc24...but it had to do with the glimpse of the ring and then the grip frame. What happened here...and there was some stuff missing that some might have missed...dlrjj and I had answered a post from another fellow and I used the wrong movie in my post. This started the to of us communicating throught here to get the information corrected. The first mistake was mine, I did something I never do...trusted my memory. I have written a number of articles over the years that were firearm related. I always write it quickly firt from memoery..BUT...then I proof read and delve into my research library. Like a fool...lol.. I didn't do the second step here and between the discussions dl and i had I dug out the right information. he peeked my interest and I wanted to correct my mistake. It was an enjoyable exchange. Another thing I have to look up now because of all of this...lol...is when the two different grip frames were offered. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say the navy grip was original on the Open Top just because it was being introduced as a new model and the Army grips were offered to use up old stock as sales for the muzzle loaders dwindled. 0
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