Savage Muzzleloader Problem No. 2
O.K., I have the primer problem solved, and now I have another problem. I cleaned the barrel. I cleaned the breech plug. The whole darn gun is absolutely, positively clean. I dry fired 3 primers off before I loaded the gun with 41.5 grains of IMR 4227. I loaded up a primer, aimed at the target, pulled the trigger..., and nothing. I load up 2 more primers and fire..., and nothing. So I take out the bolt and breech plug, and I find a little bit of powder along with an empty sabot, or I find nothing. This has happened to me about 7 times today. What I do find is the bullet about 25 or 30 yards downrange, just chillin in the grass. What in blazes is going on with this thing? Anybody have a clue? The only thing I can think of is I have a bad batch of powder, or for some reason I'm not getting complete ignition. I honestly don't know. I do know one thing. I've never had this problem with the Remington I traded in for this Savage. If I can't get the problems figured out on this gun P.D.Q., I'm going to trade this thing back in for my Remington, but I'd like to get the problems figured out. If anybody has any ideas, I'd sure appreciate hearing them. Thanks
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Is your nipple plugged up? Did you try a different batch of powder? Do you have the bullet seated well?
From what I understand you have to use a specific type of sabot in the Savage smokeless muzzleloaders when shooting it with smokeless powder. If not you get the results you just posted. You have to have a sabot that will maintain a tight seal around the chamber since smokeless powder depends on this tight seal to ignite and burn properly and drive the bullet at it's intended velocity. So I'd probably say that your problem is with your bullet/sabot choice.
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don't get mad for me asking this, (I have done it), did you leave some oil or solvent in the bore? It MUST be completely dry so as not to contaminate powder.
winchester 209"s right?
high humidity in your area? Powder sucks up moisture in a heartbeat!!
Did you FIRMLY pack the sabot on top of the charge? I give it a few light taps with a peice of wood or push the rifle with the rod against the sidw of the building/truck/bench/tree/etc to pack it well. The primer with that little bit of powder can dislodge the pill and allow very poor igntion. packing it is like having good neck tension on a rifle bullet load.
what other symptoms were present? and variables you can remember?
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
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Let me see JustC if I can remember all your questions. No solvent in the bore or oil, at least I can't imagine there would be any left after firing 3 primers. Winchester 209 primers, yes. Did I make sure the load was properly packed? Well, I pushed the ramrod all the way down until it hit bottom, and then pushed a little bit, but no I didn't tap on it or really stand on it. Should I pack it that tight? Just asking. I was using Hornady Lock n' Load sabots with the stem cut off and their 250 grain SST bullets, and I also used some TC 240 grain Cheap Shots. I had problems when using both bullets. Humidity? The last 2 days have been in the mid 80's with low to midland humidity, but yes it does get humid sometimes. The powder was measured on a scale, and then placed in one of them Butler Creek quick loaders, so I would think that would seal out moisture. The nipple was clear. As far as whether the sabot didn't seal good enough, I can't answer that. I guess I don't know enough about that to know whether they did or didn't. The powder was purchased about a week ago. It seems that last weekend when I first shot it, I didn't have a problem, but this weekend I had terrible problems, so could I assume that somewhere along the way, my powder absorbed some moisture? Would you recommend a different posder, or is IMR 4227 work pretty well? Can't think of anything else. I guess one thing I'm going to try ronight is using some Triple 7 and seeing if I have any trouble with that. Could I assume that if it works well, that my trouble would be in the powder or bullet/sabot combo? I think that's all I can think of. Thanks again. 0 -
well,..a primer can blow a fair amount out,..but if the bore was "wet" with oil,..it could have contaminated the charges.
As far as sabots goes,...the ONLY ones they say to use are the black high pressure sabots with the MMP brand being the best. Also,..the ONLY recommended bullets are those that measure .452" dia whereas most measure .451". The extra .001" helps to ensure a good gas seal between the sabot and the bore grooves. If there is blow-by, then you lose all pressure and velocity.
as far as powders,..the 4227 is the hardest to ignite as it is the slowest of them all. I used it only because I wanted to shoot mine and that was the only compatable powder the store had on hand. I am almost finished with it though and will be moving to the vihtavouri N110 which is touted to be the BEST for this rig. It is a lot faster, so it will ignite far easier and will produce an extra 100-200fps (but recoil is a function of that). I will hopefully find the N110 to be the best and will stick with it.
You can also try "lil gun" as I have heard that works well too.
try drying that bore out completely, then pack it tight with a black high pressure sabot, and the win209 primer again and see if it lights. If it doesn't go,..try a hotter primer just to see if that is it,..if so, lose the 4227 and go to a faster powder with the win primers. They say the 4227 is hard to light, but I have had no problems.
Or, try this first,..pour out a small pile of the 4227 on the ground and light it. If it doesn't burn very well,..it has been contaminated. That will tell you quickly without having to go to the range. I have a lot of respect for these ML's as I have witnessed their ability and ease of operation. It sounds to me like there is some variable working against you that you need to find,..after that the gun will be one of your favorites. Remember, you are trying to create a metallic cartridge without the cartridge,..so everything will have to be right for the system to work properly,..not a lot of room for error.
Let me know what you find as you look through things.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
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Well JustC, I believe I have solved the problem, thanks to some good advice from you. I tried a different sabot. It wasn't the black MMP, although I will be ordering some of those from Cabela's. I used Barnes 245 grain spitfires with their new yellow sabot. Barnes this sabot will handle any pressure that the Savage can dish out. It sure loaded alot harder than those TC Cheap Shots or the Hornady Lock n' Loads. I'm a pretty big guy, and I about stood on the ramrod to get it down. After I got it down, I found a tree nearby and pushed against it for a little extra pressure. Oh by the way, I did dry fire it again before I loaded it. I shot it 5 times and had no misfires. I shot twice first, and then checked my target at 100 yards. The 2 shots were about 2 inches apart. I adjusted my scope a fuzz, and then shot 3 more times, and 2 shots went through basically the same hole, and the third was about 1 inch off to the left. I was well pleased with the gun tonight. As far as the primers go, I just can't get any other primer to go into the pocket except the Winchester 209's. The pocket isn't dirty, the primers are just about .002" too big for the pocket, for whatever reason I don't know. As far as the powder goes, I'll have to use the 4227 until I can get somewhere that sells the Vhitavouri 110, but I'll definitely get some. One more question. I seen in the Cabela's magazine some gas seals that is made by the same company that makes the MMP sabots. Think they're a good idea? Thanks again for the help. Hopefully, I am on the right track now. 0 -
Try the boys at www.sav10ml.com and see what they say on the gas seals. I know that if you don't have a tight fit,..you just don't get the pressure. I used the black sabots with the hornady pills and they work just fine.
here is a tip,..look at the hornady pistol bullets in something like natchez (www.natchezss.com) and compare the price of the 45LC pistol bullets (.452") in 250gr XTP and the hornady ML 250gr XTP with sabots. You get 100 pistol bullets and 100 sabots from MMP for like $22 and you only get 20 250gr muzzleloader xtps and sabots for $10. Do the math,..buy the pistol bullets and sabots seperately and you save something like 60%. I lil tip,..the XTP 250gr HP in the muzzleloader bullet is the exact same bullet as the 250gr xtp in 45LC pistol bullets[;)]
I can understand your frustration. I figured I had loaded for enough matches and shot enough to know what I was doing. I called savage and got the skinny on everything,.and then went to trying my own loads with new primers and bullets etc. They are not BS'ing you,..the bullets and primers they say to use,..ARE THE ONLY ones that work consistently
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
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I checked out that website JustC. There's an awful lot of information being put out there. Shute, I just want a good hunting rifle. Seems the general concensus is for the MMP or Harvestor sabots loaded up with the Hornady bullets, either the SST or the XTP. Why is there never any talk anywhere of Barnes Bullets. I sure have killed a bunch of deer with them, both in muzzleloaders and the X bullets out of my 30-06, yet I never hear the excitement of them as I do about the Hornadys. I'm not knocking the Hornady's mind you. I may have to give them a try this year, but I think I'll go ahead and order some of the good sabots to shoot them out of instead of wasting my time with the sabots that are supplied. Thanks Again. 0 -
I have no ideas why no other pills are used,..the one thing I do know for sure is that they work best at .452" dia and very few of the available slugs measure that dia,..most are .451". I have probably 6-8 different types here that all measure .451"[:(] Not to say they can't be reasonably accurate,..but the .452" seem to be the ticket. Savage told me they ONLY recommend the SST and XTP in 250gr and 300gr for that reason. I got the 240gr xtp (.451") into a .861" 3 shot group at 100yds,..so if the .452's are more accurate than that,..look out deer[;)]
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0
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