222 and 223 history
The difference is 1 ten thousandth of an inch. They were both made by Remington, I think. Why did Remington make two rounds so close in size? I know one is the militery round. Was it a nato round first? What year did both come out? Thanx for your help, I have a lot of caliber questions to come in the future.......
Caliber Challenged Autosmith
Caliber Challenged Autosmith
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I assume that you are referring to the overall length of the shell casing? If so, the difference is not 1/10,000 of an inch... it is about 1/10 of an inch. If you are referring to the caliber designation, they are both actually .224 in diameter. The Triple Duece (.222) was introduced before the .223 (not sure of the exact year, but I want to say it was sometime in the 1940s).
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
maybe you should buy cartridges of the world by frank barnes if you have a lot of questions. the 222 is a miniaturized 30-06. the case capacity of the 223 will give it a couple hundred fps over the 222. the 223. the round was a remington design. 223 was introduced in 1957. 222 was a few years earlier 1949 or 54 i think.
I'm not an expert, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.0 -
I was out shooting one day and encountered a guy with a Mini-14 in .222 Rem.
I thought to myself, why would someone buy a Mini in .222 rather than .223 since the two are so similar and the .223 can also shoot the military 5.56mm ammo that is so plentiful. I did not bring it up as I did not want to hurt his feelings.
I have several Mini-14's, all in .223 and they are great shooters whether using .223 or 5.56 ammo.
Joe
"Never let school interfere with your education"0 -
autosmith,
bperdue21 makes a very good suggestion about getting a copy of Cartridges of the World which can be found in used bookstores if you take the time to look. You will find a bunch of excellent information about cartridges, some with drawings and load information.
Here is an introduction overview of the .223 type cartridges:
About the "Mousegun" Round
Clarifying some popular gunshop and Internet fables
There has been a great deal of resentment surrounding the .223 Remington cartridge since its inception during the 1950s, and continuing right up to this day with no less, and no more, an eminence than Jeff Cooper disdainfully dismissing it as "a mouse gun round."
Formally introduced in 1964 as the military's Ball Cartridge M193 round for the experimental semi-automatic and light automatic rifles designed by Eugene Stoner, L. James Sullivan and Robert Fremont of Armalite Division of Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation, the 5.56 X 45mm (nee .222 Special) or 5.56mm NATO had evolved along parallel lines with the .222 Remington Magnum (nee .224 Springfield) cartridge, but with roughly one grain less of case capacity.
(The "triple deuce magnum," a prototypal military round for use in light combat arms, had itself been developed jointly by Remington Arms Company and U.S. Springfield Armory1 in the mid-'50s as part of Project SALVO.?)
Although the military had had its problems with the replacement for its venerable M1 Garand, the M14 chambered in 7.62 X 51mm, hard corps types, feeling that there was something unseemly about a fighting rifle of anything less than .30 caliber, denigrated the 5.56mm at practically every opportunity, and there is considerable evidence that the Army Ordnance Corps3 (which had built the M14 itself) actually tried to rig the U.S. Military procurement tests to the disadvantage of the AR-15/5.56mm combination. That the 5.56mm/.223 Remington has succeeded as the military's designated round for its infantrymen for as long as it has may be viewed as something of a minor miracle.
The .222 Special, now renamed the .223 Remington so as to avoid confusion with the other two "triple deuce rounds," was released commercially as a sporting arms cartridge when the company for which it is named brought out their Model 760 slide action rifle in that chambering for the 1964 season. The gun writers of the day for the most part gave it short shrift, arguing that it was "wimpier "than the already established .222 Rem. Mag., and that the geometry of the cartridge with its relatively short neck was violating a cardinal design rule. But as more carbines and rifles were introduced for the .223 Remington, the .222 Remington Magnum has all but disappeared. (So too, for all practical purposes, has the original .222 Remington, once the standard for benchrest competitors who have abandoned it in wholesale numbers for the fat little PPC cartridges of .22 and 6mm designation which Ferris Pindell and Dr. Louis Palmisano introduced to great acclaim in the early '70s.)
Undoubtedly what has solidified the .223 Remington's place in the hierarchy of small bore rifle chamberings has been the enormous popularity of Sturm, Ruger & Company's Mini-14 (and subsequent "Ranch Rifle" edition) and the many variations of the Colt's AR-15, the semi-auto version of the military M16, the celebrated, ofttimes notorious, but ubiquitous "black rifle" of Vietnam.
Background on the 5.56mm
In the aftermath of the Second World War, the United States Military determined that it had a requirement for a detachable-magazine rifle with a fully automatic capability. After a less-than-satisfactory honeymoon with the 7.62 NATO/M80 (a commercial version of which was released by Olin as the .308 Winchester), those involved in the Small Caliber/High Velocity (SCHV) program at Maryland's Aberdeen Proving Ground agitated for a lightweight, select-fire rifle firing... no surprise here!... a smaller, mid-power, high-velocity cartridge. (Coincidentally, within this same period, the military of many other countries were experimenting with sub-.30 caliber caliber guns that were controllable in full-auto, and allowed more rounds to be carried.
Into the M1 Garand/M14 breech stepped small arms designer Gene Stoner of ArmaLite. Having designed the 7.62x51mm AR-10 rifle, Stoner listened when General Willard G. Wyman, Commanding General of the U.S. Continental Army Command (CONARC) suggested that a scaled down version might be looked upon with favor by the SCHV program. ArmaLite engineers Jim Sullivan and Bob Fremont thereupon reduced the AR-10 around the hot varmint cartridge of the day, the .222 Remington.
In the early-to-mid-'50s there had been three .22 caliber cartridges, all "stretched" versions of the popular "triple-deuce," which were vieing to be the next military round:
? .224 Winchester
? .224 Springfield
? .222 Special, a Stoner-design
After preliminary testing by the U.S. military, it was apparent that the .222 Remington developed excessive pressures when loaded to meet the Army's ballistic requirements. At the same time, the pair of .224s also fell by the wayside. While the experimental .224 Springfield had the increased power sought, it was felt that its geometry would have prevented positive feeding in an automatic self-loading rifle. Stoner's .222 Special case was then simply lengthened into the 5.56x45mm cartridge (a/k/a .223 Armalite) and released commercially as the .223 Remington with virtually identical exterior ballistics as the .222 Remington Magnum.
After U.S.A.F. General Curtis LeMay got a look at the scaled down AR10, yclept AR15, and was impressed enough to have the "black rifle" adopted by the Air Force, the rest of the military gradually fell into line, aided in no small amount by continuing problems with the M14 program. Designated the M16, the Stoner-Sullivan-Fremont gun survived everything from ammo-related problems (Winchester's curious selection of propellants which caused reliability problems in the rifle's finicky gas system) to invidious references by traditionalists to its evolutionary plastic appurtenances ("Weapons by Mattel"), and went on to become one of the most recognizable icons of the Vietnam war.
.222 Remington
A brainchild of Remington's Mike Walker, the .222 was made possible by the introduction of the Remington Model 722 bolt-action rifle. That combination, the .222 and the 722, ruled the accuracy roost among varmint shooters during the 1950s, and the little cartridge even went on to absolutely dominate registered benchrest competition until the 6mm PPC came along in 1975. In addition, the .222 eventually spawned the .17 Remington, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington Magnum, .223 Remington, and the European 5.6x50mm Magnum, making it one of the more prolific cartridges introduced during the 20th century. Today, the .223 is more popular, but when all is said and done it really won't do a lot that can't be done about as well with the .222 Remington. If ever I decide to build the six most accurate rifles in the world, one of them will be chambered for the .222 Remington.
Take the time to buy a couple of books about cartridges and enjoy reading and studying them. If you want some more suggestions just post again.
Best.
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Thank You nononsense,
Wow, that was the reply I was looking for. I will purchase that book and I thank both of you.
Best Regards,
Autosmith0 -
Nononsense,
WELL SAID!
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>0 -
I just wanted to add that the .222 is widely used in Europe. Most countries have laws that prohibit ownership of military caliber guns.
It is pretty easy for a manufacturer to offer a legal, .222 version of a gun originally designed for the 5.56/223.
Daniel.0 -
Hi,
The case length of the 222 is 1.7 inches. The case length of the 223 is 1.76 inches.
The 222 was introduced in 1950 for the 722 bolt action rifle. The cartridge was very popular in the 1970s for benchrest competition. Varmint hunters also found the 222 to be an effective chambering. The design for the 222 was attributed to Mike Walker of Remington.
The 223 first appeared in 1957 as an experimental rifle cartridge for the Armalite AR-15 assault rifle. It was officially adopted by the US Army in 1964. The 223 is attributable to the work of Robert Hutton, who was the technical editor of Guns and Ammo. magazine.
Add two more elements to the confusion - the 222 Magnum and the 222 Rimmed.
The 222 Mag was originally developed as an experimental military cartridge in cooperation with Remington and Springfield Arsenal. It is now an obsolete cartridge since no one is manufacturing rifles in this caliber.
The 222 Rimmed is essentially the same as the 222 but was rimmed for better operation in a bolt action rifle. I just obtained one of these cartridges for my collection.
A very interesting family of related cartridges.
Regards,
Heavyiron
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
quote:Originally posted by heavyiron
Hi,
The case length of the 222 is 1.7 inches. The case length of the 223 is 1.76 inches.
The 222 was introduced in 1950 for the 722 bolt action rifle. The cartridge was very popular in the 1970s for benchrest competition. Varmint hunters also found the 222 to be an effective chambering. The design for the 222 was attributed to Mike Walker of Remington.
The 223 first appeared in 1957 as an experimental rifle cartridge for the Armalite AR-15 assault rifle. It was officially adopted by the US Army in 1964. The 223 is attributable to the work of Robert Hutton, who was the technical editor of Guns and Ammo. magazine.
Add two more elements to the confusion - the 222 Magnum and the 222 Rimmed.
The 222 Mag was originally developed as an experimental military cartridge in cooperation with Remington and Springfield Arsenal. It is now an obsolete cartridge since no one is manufacturing rifles in this caliber.
The 222 Rimmed is essentially the same as the 222 but was rimmed for better operation in a bolt action rifle. I just obtained one of these cartridges for my collection.
A very interesting family of related cartridges.
Regards,
Heavyiron
I guess that makes my pair of 222 Magnums a bit more valueable now[^]. I own an original Model 722 chambered for 222 Rem Mag, and a Model 700 BDL VS in 222 Rem Mag. Both rifles will shoot a ragged hole at 100 yards if I do my part[^][:D][^].
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
And my 86 boxes of 222 Rem Mag ammo is even more valuable now.[:D]
AlleninAlaska
Delta Firearms & Supplies
http://www.galleryofguns.com
aglore@gci.net0 -
You gotta love the "Deuce"! I've got an old Savage 340 in 222 that will (with a warm, fouled barrel) put em all on a dime at 100 yds using 52 Gr. Hornady HP's and BL-C2. The whole rig, which is all vintage including the 4x Lyman scope and Savage side mount cost me about $250. It will generally embarrass the heck out of my friends with their $1000 varmint rigs. The old Savages are surprisingly accurate, but you can attribute much of the success I have in this case to the cartridge; one of the most inherently accurate and well concieved small bore rounds ever devised.
"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)0 -
quote:Originally posted by aglore
And my 86 boxes of 222 Rem Mag ammo is even more valuable now.[:D]
AlleninAlaska
Delta Firearms & Supplies
http://www.galleryofguns.com
aglore@gci.net
Hey... you were supposed to contact me about that stash of ammo. Please get in touch.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0
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