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Did Eugene Stoner

ndbilly
originally envision the .223 rd in a .45 gr/4000 fps configuration? Heard that the other day (for the first time) in a discussion of bullet weights for the A-4. We seem to be getting closer to the 100 gr mark these days.
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7 comments

Date Votes
  • cloop
    NOt with a 223 case and 20" barrel he didn't. That's a good 15% beyond what's feasible. The 100gr stuff is for 1000 yd competition, not combat. The higher velocity and reduced stability of a lighter bullet (in military fmj format) is more likely to destabilize in the man, creating more likelihood of incapacitation. The longer, heavier slower bullets have more punch at longer ranges, but the fact is that 99+% of the non-accidental hits occur at less than 300m, and 90+% occur at less than 100m. Most hits in combat are random accidents, you know. In the smoke, darkness, snow, rain, fog, when you are depressed, exhausted, dysenteric (common combat conditions) while ducking enemy fire, a dodging torso is easily missed at 100 yds. Ditto a head bobbing around cover at 50 yds.
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  • rldowns3
    I think stoners concept was based somewhere around the 55-62grn weights.

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  • kimberkid
    If I remember my history correctly ...

    Stoner originally envisioned the AR10 in .308 ... the AR15/M16 and .223 hadn't even been developed yet.

    The .223 only came into being because the military (Air Force) wanted a smaller round to save weight and allow men to carry more rounds ... then the AR15 was born.
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    Member Since 8/29/1999
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  • Frogbert
    quote:Originally posted by kimberkid

    If I remember my history correctly ...

    Stoner originally envisioned the AR10 in .308 ... the AR15/M16 and .223 hadn't even been developed yet.

    The .223 only came into being because the military (Air Force) wanted a smaller round to save weight and allow men to carry more rounds ... then the AR15 was born.
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    Member Since 8/29/1999


    I believe that is correct. I'm not sure if it was .308 or .280 he had in mind, but it wasn't .223. I'll try to find the article.

    No, it was Garand who origionally envisioned his weapon in .280 caliber.


    Frog.

    RiBBButt...You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you've a mind to. -Roger Miller
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  • Iconoclast
    The original Stoner design was a 55gr projectile. I have seen so many questions on this, and so many inaccuracies (no offense to anyone who has replied to this or previous threads), that I am writing a "Did You Know" for Kirk to post which I hope will cover the topic with sufficient detail.

    "There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)
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  • sandwarrior
    I'll go with frogbert and kimberkid on this one. Originally, Gene Stoner wanted to use the .308 in his rifle. Springfield armory came up with something very close to what the .222 Rem mag is today for testing. The military insisted that it was going to move to a .224 cal cartridge. Gene then moved towards making the .224 cal round work in his rifle. It was at that point that he went with the 55 gr. bullet in the .223 caliber.

    edit:
    corrected a couple of typos...

    We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
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  • Xracer
    "No, it was Garand who origionally envisioned his weapon in .280 caliber."

    Close.......it was .276 Pederson.
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