Smokeless Powder for Muzzleloaders II
I copied off a copy of the owners manual for the Savage's, and there is actually 3 different powders that they recommend. I copied this because I shoot Remingtons, and am trying to figure out what exactly the difference is between the two that Savages can use smokeless and Remingtons can't. There must be a difference somewhere, but I don't know what it would be. I wonder if it is a liability issue. In other words, they're safe for smokeless, but they won't recommend it because some people would be careless and get themselves killed trying to make a muzzleloader do the same thing that centerfires do, which I just don't think can be done for obvious reasons. I would like to try it by cutting back on the smokeless by about 25%, but just don't think I want to risk it. I think if the smokeless thing really starts to get a large market share, then the other manufacture's have to respond or risk losing alot of customers and money.
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Don't try it with anything but the Savage!
"My faith, my country and my family will guide me; nothing more, nothing less" -Gen. Tommy Franks0 -
i wouldn't try it at all. but if you do, i would reduce the load much more than 25%. i would start out at about 20%. 75 grains of smokeless is alot of powder. i don't think it will catch on. at least here in VA smokeless is illegal in muzzleloader season and i seriously doubt the hunters here are going to like the gun so much that they buy one to hunt in rifle season with. i'm sure other states have similar laws against using smokeless in muzzleloader season.
I'm not an expert, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.0 -
I shoot Pyrodex RS, which is considered smokless out of my CVA Optima. Read this....
Pyrodex is the most common "black powder substitute." It is really the only synthetic black powder "performance" substitute in common use. By performance substitute, I refer to a charge of loose powder measure by volume. A 100 grain volumetric charge of Pyrodex RS (Rifle/Shotgun) is very close in performance to Goex FFg black powder.
There are differences, though, and this is where things get a bit convoluted. Pyrodex is bulkier, another way of saying "less dense." By weight, it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is indeed by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute.
By actual weight, it is not the same. 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by weight. Pyrodex is where confusion can start to set in, as the standard "F" designations of powder coarseness start to go out the window.
Pyrodex "Select," formulated for use in muzzleloading rifles, is touted as an "extremely consistent" grade of Pyrodex, and has the largest grain size of them all. It is even farther away from black powder by actual weight; 100 grains volumetric equals about 63.9 grains by actual weight.
Pyrodex, though man-made and with a variety of additives, still has sulfur in it and is corrosive. It is classified as a smokeless powder by the DOT, and bears little resemblance to traditional black powder in actual weight or grain size. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder, and is safer to handle, use, and store due to this fact. It is also not as impact-sensitive as is true black powder. Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive as is black powder, and is sold at many chain stores due to this fact.
taken from this site
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
Better to carry a pistol and not need it than need a pistol and not have it.0 -
smokeless powder is legal this year in MD. If we got it,..other states will soon follow.
As to the difference,..you need to hold one of each gun next to each other. The savage is VERY thick in the action area and has been tested to 160,000PSI (3 times what a modern centerfire rifle developes). The action was designed to hold that fast pressure curve.
If you want to try it in another action type, at least give the guys at the next benches the respect of telling them to step back from the line. I loved my rem700 SS ML,....but this savage has been an dream to shoot. Groups under 1" are common and better as you get used to it. My load of IMR4227 at 47gr with the hornady XTP looks like a rifle group.
also, the savage can use EVERY POWDER that is legal as well as smokeless. [;)]
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
Dont try to use modern powders in any muzzleloader other than the Savage which is designed for it. The Savage bolt has locking lugs like a regular centerfire and a beveled mating surface on the end that cams tightly shut against a matching surface on the reciever , it surrounds the breech plug and nipple to seal it . all other muzzleloaders dont have this system. Your Rem. 700 M/L has no locking lugs. modern smokeless powder produces pressure immediatly that is far in excess of any black powder or black powder substitute. most likely something will blow out(breech plug, nipple, the bolt itself) the hot gas released upon a rupture spews out at a couple of hundred mph and is hot enough to melt your eyeballs. The metal parts that break loose can go through your skull and whatever is inside it. Dont do it unless you have a serious death wish and then do it alone so you dont hurt anybody else. As the man said the "gene pool needs Chlorine">
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Thanks all for the info. I'm not going to try it, but what I may try is either trading in one of my 700's for a Savage, or just selling one, and then buying one. I've heard way too many things about that Savage that is weakening my willpower. Actually, the ballistics of the Savage with the smokeless don't turn me on as much as the fact that I know I would shoot more knowing I wouldn't have to spend an additional hour of cleaning every time I would shoot. I'm not really all that hung up on being a tried and true traditionalist, I just want to shoot more and fool around less. Maybe, I'm lazy for that, but I also farm part time, work in a factory full-time, a reserve soldier once a month, and work in a veterinary clinic in my spare time, so I've got a full plate without any more extra stuff to do. Thanks again. 0 -
If you don't feel like cleaning anything then I suggest you even forget about muzzleloaders all togeather.
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I fired my savage (stainless) 18 times when I mounted the scope and never patched the barrel out. The sabots slid down the barrel just like they were the first one in a clean barrel every time and the groups were still 1moa[8D] The best thing about smokeless is no corrosion,..cleaning is menial compared to that. You will have to replace your breech plug every so many hundred rounds from what I hear (gas cutting),..but hey, trust me, you will never look back, not even once.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0
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