long distance cartidges and why.....
i want to know why long range shooters choose the caliber they do...... obviously accuracy has a lot to do with it, but the 2506 270 280 are accurate guns, why dont you see it classified like the 308 3006 and 300 win mag.
how did the military settle on the 300 win mag over say the 7mm rem mag?
thanks in advance. this just kinda came up in coversation with friends about the best "one round for everything".....
how did the military settle on the 300 win mag over say the 7mm rem mag?
thanks in advance. this just kinda came up in coversation with friends about the best "one round for everything".....
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Long range shooters choose their calibers for varying reasons. Velocity, accuracy, bullet weights and types, cartridge capacity, and probably the biggest one is just personal preference.
Don't bother asking why the military chooses the cartridges it does. Sometimes it's a mystery.[:D]
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I am not sure if anyone knows, but the 30 caliber just works better than smaller or larger diameter bullets for long distances. How far and flat they go is proportionate to recoil. The 300 Weatherby is great for long distance, but kicks real good too. 0 -
25-06 is a great long range catridge, but it seems they don't make the proper bullets to max out its long range potential. 30 caliber is less effected by wind at long range and has a great selection of bullets to choose from.
I'm not an expert, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.0 -
We have a 1000 yard range. Most shooters use .300 Win Mag with one using a 7 m/m of some type. I prefer the 155 Palma Match bullet but some of the others use 190 gr bullets.
Keep Your Powder Dry
NRA Life Member
The only criminal class that is native to the United States is congress.
MARK TWAIN0 -
there are 2 schools of thought,..one school beleives in big long heavy bullets at high speeds (magnum crowd),.two is the guys who go with a case that calculates out to be as close to 100% efficient with appropriate powders and bore dia, bullet weight, twist rate etc. (6.5x284 etc crowd)
I chose the first school when I got started because a high BC pill with a lot of mass and travelling fast can help make tighter groups when the wind picks up. That way I was supposedly making up for my lack of wind/mirage reading ability. However,..as I have run more and more rounds under my palm,..I am steadily working back toward the smaller and more efficient chamberings. In the past few years, there have been a lot of belted magnums replaced by WSM's and RSAUM's etc on the benchrest circuit.
I started with the "Big Dog" for my 1000yd light gun,..the 300RUM. It is no doubt superior in the wind and with 220gr bullets,..but you'll find that experience makes you a better shooter and the need for the power is reduced. Once my 300RUM tube is dead,..I will be backing off to say a 300RSAUM, 7mm SAUM, 6.5x55AI, 6.5WSM etc. Now,..figure this as well,.you have to consider how well your rig will "track" in the bags (recoil and return to point of aim). The more powder, the heavier the recoil and greater the torque forces on the stock. Many 1000yd shooters prefer to shoot under one certain "condition" when they like their wind flags positioning. That means the rifle has to track and return quickly to get that next round ready to go before the wind changes. They TRY to get all 5 record shots off during that condition as fast as possible to eliminate as much of the atmospheric variables as possible. The lower the recoil, the easier this is,..even with a break.
As for 30cal pills being balisticaly superior,..that is just plain false. The 6.5mm pills in the 140-147gr range have very high BC's as do the 175-180gr 7mm's.
now as to your asking about the 270, 280, 25-06, that is for one or more of many reasons. The 277 bore offers very few match bullet offerings as does the 25-06, yet it has a bit more. The 280 can use any 7mm match pill which makes it the better (match bore) choice simply because of the bullets avaialable. second,..many beleive, and as I touched on, the shorter fatter powder columns of the short cases make for a theoreticaly more efficient burn because they more readily fill the case and eliminate the air space which can cause variations in MV and ES as well as SD of the loads over the chronograph.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
quote:Originally posted by bperdue21
25-06 is a great long range catridge, but it seems they don't make the proper bullets to max out its long range potential.
The 117 gr. Sierra Gameking has a BC of .438. To get the same B.C. in a 30 cal gameking, one must step up to the 200 gr., which will have no where near the trajectory. Of course, the .25-06 is better suited to animals under 400 lbs, but I use mine for Elk with 100 gr. Barnes TSX boat tail loaded to 3584 FPS. (I load the 117's to 3178 FPS). I am fully confident this cartridge can effectively take large mule deer at 600 yards, provided the shooter can place the round in the vitals. With the 117 gr. load I mentioned and a 200 yard zero, the bullet drops a mere 53 inches at 600 yards and still has 1340 FPE.
IMHO, the .25-06 is the perfect deer round.
I should add that the figures given above were with B.C. adjusted for an altitude of 9000 feet and a temp of 45 degrees F with a baro of 22.75 in/hg.
Save the seals-club a liberal instead.0 -
hph,
Long range shooters usually pick their target and distance then work backwards to solve the problem of which cartridge is suitable. Believe it or don't, target shooters and hunters have completely different needs and requirements. Both want their bullet to get to the target accurately and very important, above the speed of sound, for stability. But the hunter also has to be concerned with the amount of Remaining Energy, the energy left over at the end of the bullet's flight to the intended target. There has to enough left to put the game down ethically and humanely.
The answer to "why not..." has been answered; lack of bullets, lack of public desire/purchasing support and lack of manufacturing support. Case and point: JustC mentions the 6.5-284 as the dominant target cartridge right now. But 50 years ago and up until 10 years ago, the 6.5 cartridges were not just frowned on but basically ignored by the American public. They were accepted and widely used in Europe and the Scandinavian countries for both target and hunting from varmints through moose. But here, the shooters couldn't care less, until they realized why they were getting beat consistantly in the European matches. Increased interest lead to increased manufacturing and greater selection of high quality components and a star was born. The 6.5 caliber has taken off with incredible exuberance, to the point where virtually every case commonly available has been necked up or necked down to the .264" diameter and tested for accuracy, efficiency and range.
The funny thing about long range shooters is that they are generally inveterate tinkers, they like to play with all of the variables. They aren't satisfied with what everyone else is using, they want the new stuff that the guy sitting next to them doesn't have. And they are always in the quest for the perfect solution to the long range problem whether it's for hunting or target shooting.
The "one round for everything..." will get hundreds of different answers and mine would something in .25 caliber if we had a better selection of bullets in a wider range of weights and BC. Since that's not going to happen in the near future, I would opt for the 6.5 x 55 Swede for the basic availability of components and capability of handling anything from varmints to moose and being an extremely accurate target cartridge.
This is a partial answer to the question about the military choice.
This is the link for the entire article:
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/A191a.asp
This is also a good article about the military process of selection:
http://www.aspiringtech.net/nobull/M24SWS.html0 -
Hph,
I hope you read the articles Nononsense provided. One can really get a feel for how political the military is within itself. Such was the case when the AR-15 was chosen and the M-14 dropped. One point the author(Hugo Teufel) questioned was why the M21 was employed. The answer to that is actually true more so in Vietnam than Korea. Snipers truly operated on their own there as opposed to Korea where they usually operated near massive American lines. An accurized semi-automatic weapon could provide the firepower needed to keep an enemy at bay if compromised. A bolt action could not. The Marines nailed this tactic early using the more accurate bolt rifle for the primary weapon of the team and the semi-auto scoped
M-14(pre-M21 days) as the secondary and volume weapon. When ever possible a squad was used as rear security for the team if they operated outside a company or platoon. The Marines were using the M40 in 7.62X51 from late in the Vietnam war. A specialist armorer basically made and fitted the barrel from a quality blank to a Rem 40X action and glass(epoxy) bedded them. Prior to that they used Win 70's and 1903's in 30-06 for a maximum effective range of 1200 yds. The Marines by the way have probably the best sniper course in the world. The Army sniper course in Ft. Benning is patterned after it.
The .300 Win Mag was decided upon because it gave more range to a 30 cal. bullet than did a 30-06. An item of note is that the Marine M40 system is a Remington 40X (700) short action. The M24 is a Rem 700 long action. This was decided upon as the U.S. Army will never make up it's mind as to which cartridge exactly they want to use as a sniper rifle so they took the action that will accomodate all the rounds. In a lot of ways it still goes back to the .22 vs. .30 cal debate. What does the job with the least amount of expense, recoil, what does the new guy want, etc. etc.
On the civilian side of long range shooting the Europeans have used the 6.5 for years. for a limited amount of recoil a bullet of very high BC can be launched. That thought process is to use efficient flight characteristics as opposed to raw power. At 1000 yds or any distance really beyond 500 meters you will need to adjust for windage and elevation no matter what you shoot. No setting between the two will hold in a 'one-zero-fits-all' situation. So, it's easier to use something efficient and calculate the ballistcs. Wherever competition shooters go the market will follow. For now 6.5's dominate, but I have noticed Berger, a competition bulletmaker only, has made some runs of .25 cal's. They didn't pan out as the market hasn't gone that way yet. With the advent of the 6.8SPC I'm sure there is going to be some toying with .27 cal. But, unless someone starts really whipping the competition with a superior .270 cal. cartridge, competition shooters are going to stay with what they know works.
-I hope you persue this more in your own quest for accuracy, good luck
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>0
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