muzzleloader discussion
JustC and iluvguns, you're right about the savage muzzleloader being the most advanced and most powerful muzzleloader on the market. What I meant by buying a better used muzzleloader, was instead of spending $200-$300 on a new muzzleloader, why not buy a better muzzleloader than what that amount can buy new and buy used. I do know Savages cost more than $300 because I've priced them. iluvguns, you're right in the point that in CAPABLE HANDS they may be 300 yard guns. My point is that there are so many variables and avenues for disaster at 300 yards with muzzleloader velocities at that range that I wouldn't take the chance. I've been in the military for 15 years, and have shot expert several times, depending on what range I was on. I guess I've been brainwashed into erroring on the side of safety. I would also argue that a higher percentage of hunters are not capable at 300 yards. I believe we owe it to whitetails to harvest them as humanely as possible instead of taking risky shots, and giving animal rights more fuel for their fire. I would agree with you JustC on the accuracy of Remington 700's. I have 3 of them, one for me, one for my wife, and one for my 15 year old daughter. My wife has shot deer at 100 yards, and k.o'ed them. I would also argue that whitetail deer are an animal of cover for the most part, not open terrain as are mule deer, and I just don't see the necessity of taking chances, when it is much more satisfying to try and outsmart the wily whitetail.
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I have a question. According to Hodgdon, I believe that with 250 grain bullets, and 100 grains of triple-7, the muzzle velocity is around 1500 fps, not exactly, but close. My question is this. What is the velocity, the trajectory, and the remaining energy of that 250 grain bullet at 300 yards? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants here. I would just like to know, because I don't. 0 -
This will answer a lot of your questions:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/
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Thank You rldowns3 for the lead to that website. I checked it out, and it did indeed answer alot of questions. In a previous discussion, I said that there was no 300 yard muzzleloaders manufactured today. That website confirms what I said in that yarn. According to that website, a 250 grain bullet will arrive at a target 300 yards going 918 fps. It will drop 110.74 inches and have 36 inches of wind drift. There will only be 468 foot pounds of energy left in that bullet. This is considering there is a 1500 fps muzzle velocity. These are not ballistics conducive to deer hunting. JustC, like I said that Savage is not a 300 yard muzzleloader, at least not for deer hunting. Not now, not ever. Maybe for punching paper, yes it is 300 yard rifle, but not for deer hunting. If you choose to shoot deer at 300 yards with those ballistics, then do Iowa a favor and don't come to hunt our deer. 0 -
hadjii,..here where I live,..we have large tracts of land with woods and fields. We always have stands built along the woods row where it meets the agricultural field. The field edge stands give you the advantage of covering more area and the rifle season hasn't come in yet, so the deer are more relaxed. The smokeless powder rigs are bad nasty[}:)] They recoil less IMHO, and are super deadly.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
I,ve been hunting whitetails with muzzlestuffers for 30 or more years.I,m fairly a traditionalist and so I don,t use nor believe in inlines.Granted, I,ll cheat a bit and carry my caplock when its bad weather but the 50 cal flinter with Buffalo bullets kill real well. My caplock is a 54 and it shoots the Great Plains bullet with lethal accuracy.
But to be honest, I have killed all but one deer under 80 yds. The longest shot that I took was a 11 pointer at 96 paces.
Bill0 -
JustC, I apologize if I sounded a little hotheaded, but over the course of the last 30 years or so of my deer hunting experiences, using rifles in Louisianna, and back home in Iowa using shotguns to begin with, and for the last 12 years or so using muzzleloaders and archery, I have come across several deer that I had to destroy because they had been shot to crap by sloppy hunters, and after a while you start to get a little bitter. I hunt about the same type of terrain you do. Small woodlots surrounded by large corn and bean fields. I tend to hunt the edges in the a.m., and inside the woods in the afternoon. I have had countless opportunities at very large bucks but they were out of my comfort zone, probably over 150 or so yards. If rifles were legal, you bet, that would be a piece of cake shot, but I would rather see them big bucks keep on walking than have something go awry with a shot and have him crawl off and die. That's just my personal opinion, and that's why I'm still in the military. So everybody can have their own opinion. I would like to have one of them Savage's, but I've got so much invested in my Remington's, with custom wood stocks built for my wife's and mine, that it would be crazy to swap. I can't really complain about the accuracy of them Remington's. They really shoot nice. I shoot no more than 100 grains. Seems that anything over that starts fouling the bore up, even with firing 209 primers. 0 -
QUOTE hadjii: "JustC, I think you have been smoking too much of something. The Savage is a good muzzleloader, but a 300 yard muzzleloader it is not, not now, not ever. Nor is there a 300 yard muzzleloader made today in my opinion, and I have hunted a bunch with a muzzleloader. A 200 yard shot with a muzzleloader is a long shot, especially if you don't constantly shoot at that range over the course of the off season. On top of that, I can't imagine why anybody would need to shoot a whitetail at that range if in fact they are real deer hunters that have some good hunting ethics about them. Having said that, there are a variety of good muzzleloaders in the $200-$300 range. I would consider another option though. I would look for a better muzzleloader that is used, and pay less for it. I don't think you'll find too many muzzleloaders with the barrel shot out, and everything else is so simple that finding one with any major problems would be rather rare."
hadjii...."it's a wise man that knows his limitations", yours seems to be shorter distances, doesn't mean everyone else isn't capable of longer shots.
Having taken game at over 200 yards with a handgun, 200-300 yards with a blackpowder is not out of line. In over 35 years of hunting Iowa, I've taken several at that distance. To say there are no muzzleloaders capable of that distance speaks volumes to your inexperience. I don't have first hand knowledge on Remington's or Savage's, but the Knights are certainly capable.0 -
Hadjii
Run your balistic numbers again, but use 2100fps (IIRC) and a 240gr Hornady 44cal XTP bullet. That's what I use in my TC Encore (3 50gr pellets) and I get 3 shot (touching) cloverleafs at 100yd and am still carring more energy at 200yd than a 44Mag has at the muzzle.
Loading technique and between shot cleaning procedures can make a difference also (I use 1 patch wet with #13, 1 patch dry and 1 patch with "Bore Butter" between shots, and push the bullet down firmly until seated (no slamming the rod onto the bullet)).
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.0 -
Tailgunner1954, I did what you told me from the website listed above, and these are the numbers it gave me.At 300 yards velocity was 1085 fps, 60.73 inches of drop, 627 foot pounds of energy, and 32.5 inches of drift in a 10 mph crosswind. Either I'm figuring something wrong, or the numbers still don't look very good too me. Rembrandt, you're probably right. The guns are probably capable of 300 yard shots, but when you throw in human error, weather variables, terrain variables, and the fact that whitetails usually don't stand around for someone to lob a bunch of shots at them, I still think that 300 yard shots are foolish. Also Rembrandt, unless you are a resident of Iowa, you haven't been hunting deer in Iowa for 35 years. I can't remember when Iowa started letting non-residents hunt deer for sure but I think it was in the 80's. I started hunting deer in Iowa in 1973, and I know there was no non-resident deer hunting then, at least not legal hunting. 0 -
QUOTE hadjii: Rembrandt, you're probably right. The guns are probably capable of 300 yard shots, but when you throw in human error, weather variables, terrain variables, and the fact that whitetails usually don't stand around for someone to lob a bunch of shots at them, I still think that 300 yard shots are foolish. Also Rembrandt, unless you are a resident of Iowa, you haven't been hunting deer in Iowa for 35 years.
As I said before, It's a wise man that knows his limitations, it's good you know what yours are....you're right, I haven't been hunting Iowa for 35 years...took my first one 38 years ago, 1967, and I am a resident.0 -
Rembrandt,what are you using for bullets and powder? Just asking. As far as the Remingtons and Savage's go, my Remingtons shoot just fine, and I'd bet money that most people would say the same about Savage's. Not to change the subject, but a friend of mine told me last week that Iowa passed a law allowing the use of centerfire rifles in the 2 lower tiers of counties. What do you think of that? I'm down here in Texas finishing up some army training so I can go back to Iraq for a 3rd time so I haven't been home all summer. It doesn't surprise me I guess. I don't know where you're at, but I've had several farmers tell me that when I hunt their farms, I have to follow their rules. When I asked what they were, they said you have to shoot deer all day,and at the end of the day, you can go out and pick one out to put a tag on it. I think they were halfway joking, but were also sorta serious. The farmers are just hating deer where I'm at. My wife shot a big 11 point last year when I was home from on leave from Iraq. I don't know what it weighed, but after my brother and I drug it for about a hundred yards we gave up and left it overnight, and I went out and quartered it up the next day and packed it out. Ya, I know you're not suppose to do that, but we couldn't drag it that way through a half mile of standing corn either. 0 -
well i would say the real question is has anyone killed deer at 300 yards with a muzzleloader. i have a hard time believing that someone could do it more than 10% of the time. i don't know how much energy it would take to open up a muzzleloader bullet at 300 yards, but it seems that it would take a good bit. 200 yards is what my muzzleloader said was its accurate, lethal range. thats with 150gr of powder. probably would never be able to get a shot that far where i hunt. in a controlled environment, no wind, no temperature changes, i would like to know what kind of groups these guns would shoot at 300 yards. i have serious doubts that they can even get in an area the size of a deer's vital area with any regularity. add in all the other factors and you might get one out of 10. thats just my opinion, but it seems to me you'd need more powder and a really long barrel.
I'm not an expert, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.0
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