Questions Re 9mm Colt Rifle & an HK MP5
Dear Folks:
I'm having a couple of little problems and was hoping someone here could help.
First, our shop recently bought a Colt 9mm rifle from one of our good customers who needed some cash. The question is whether the rifle is a LE only rifle. The reason I'm asking is that all the books I've checked state that Colt sold a lot of LE only rifles without marking them LE only. These same books also say that it is a criminal offense for anyone other than a LEO to possess one of these unmarked LE only rifles. I have called Colt, but they were of no help. I've looked on the web and haven't found anything other than a few references to serial numbers below TA 10100 being "preban." I called ATF and all they could do was suggest that I call Colt, which I have already done without any success.How can I find out if this thing is LE only?
Second, another fellow, also a LEO, sold a semi-auto HK MP5 to us and we were ready to put it out on the rack for resale when another LEO tells us that there is a problem. According to this fellow, because the rifle has a pistol grip forearm, it is a Class II weapon. Once again, we called ATF, but they only offered to send us a new set of regulations and refered us to their website which really isn't too helpful. We also called HK, but again, they weren't too helpful either, saying only that they would be willing to fit it with the standard forearm if we send to them and pay an exorbident amount. I know that there are kits and so forth to put forward pistol grips on AR's, SKS's and AK's, but those aren't quite the same as an MP5. Is an otherwise civilian-legal MP5 a class 2 weapon just because it has a forward pistol grip?
Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
I'm having a couple of little problems and was hoping someone here could help.
First, our shop recently bought a Colt 9mm rifle from one of our good customers who needed some cash. The question is whether the rifle is a LE only rifle. The reason I'm asking is that all the books I've checked state that Colt sold a lot of LE only rifles without marking them LE only. These same books also say that it is a criminal offense for anyone other than a LEO to possess one of these unmarked LE only rifles. I have called Colt, but they were of no help. I've looked on the web and haven't found anything other than a few references to serial numbers below TA 10100 being "preban." I called ATF and all they could do was suggest that I call Colt, which I have already done without any success.How can I find out if this thing is LE only?
Second, another fellow, also a LEO, sold a semi-auto HK MP5 to us and we were ready to put it out on the rack for resale when another LEO tells us that there is a problem. According to this fellow, because the rifle has a pistol grip forearm, it is a Class II weapon. Once again, we called ATF, but they only offered to send us a new set of regulations and refered us to their website which really isn't too helpful. We also called HK, but again, they weren't too helpful either, saying only that they would be willing to fit it with the standard forearm if we send to them and pay an exorbident amount. I know that there are kits and so forth to put forward pistol grips on AR's, SKS's and AK's, but those aren't quite the same as an MP5. Is an otherwise civilian-legal MP5 a class 2 weapon just because it has a forward pistol grip?
Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
0
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This is my understanding of the law.
Any pistol with a vertical foregrip(pistol foregrip) is classified as an "Any Other Weapon" AOW and is subject to NFA rules. Standard foregrips should be all dandy in states that do not have Assault weapon bans modeled after the failed Federal ban.
As for the LE only rifles, im guessing we're not talking about a SBR, or a Machinegun. If we are talking about a regular everyday semiautomatic rifle that has features that were banned by the awb I don't know if there is a problem so to say. There no longer is an assault weapon ban, so lets say that hypothetically this person did own a restricted weapon, unless there were TOTAL gun registration, you will have a hard time finding when it was purchased, and if it was purchased during the ban, the law which he hypothetically violated is no longer law. If the ATF knew of this situation and wanted to prosecute could they? (trick question, the atf really doesnt need a reason to try).0 -
You dont say what state you are in and that can make a big difference. By FEDERAL LAW there is NOT a "pre-ban, post-ban, post-post-ban, or LEO only firearms" anymore. If you live in a state that STILL has sometype of AWB (assualt weapon ban) you could have a problem selling it and posaably in the buying it if special paperwork was needed for the transaction. As for the Colt, if it is a standard rifle having a 16" bbl or longer and any form of stock no matter how it is marked including LEO/export only there is no problem with it on a FEDERAL level, state may be different.
Now on to the HK. If the HK has a stock of some sort and a 16" bbl or longer it is a rifle and would be call a HK-94. As a rifle they are no differnt then the other firearms you listed. There is no FEDERAL law aginst putting a front vertical grip on a RIFLE including HK-94/MP5. Again if there is a STATE AWB you may have a problem just by buying it let alone selling it. If for some reason the HK has less then a 16" bbl on it you and the person that you bought it from are already in trouble as that would be a NFA weapon.
Like Meanie said putting a second vertical grip on a pistol would in fact make an AOW and subject to the NFA rules.
Now not to be mean but WHY would you buy firearms that you have no idea about? I am assuming that you are a dealer from what you wrote. There are so many downsides to that I am not sure what to say. Here are two big points: First if you have no idea what you are buying how do you even come up with a fair price to give for it or what to sell it for. The bigger problem is if you bought something illegal even if you didnt know it that could spell big trouble for you and your business. If you were to sell an illegal item(s) out of you business you could end up with some real serious problems. [B)][B)][B)][xx(][xx(]
John0 -
DRSCK
NWCID stated it very well. Questions. Does the HK have MP5 stamped on the top of the barrel assembly? Does it have a selector switch (safe/semi/full)? How long is the barrel?
The forearm can be changed easily and they are avaible on this site under Parts HK.0 -
Dear Fellows:
Thanks for all your thoughts. Sorry to have left out a few of the important details. I'm in Ohio and we don't have a state-wide AWB, but the major cities all have bans, so we have to be careful about specifically where our customers live. If you live on one side of a street, a firearm is perfectly legal, but if you live fifty feet across the street inside the city, you're in violation.
The Colt is strickly semi-auto with a sixteen inch barrel. It didn't come with the box, but from what I can tell, it appears to be either a model R6450 or a LE6920. Its serial number is about 300 beyond 10100 number that seems to separate the preban/postban items. I guess the real reason that this whole thing is so disturbing is that I take pride in knowing what I'm doing and try to be as professional as possible. In this case, however, it seems that nobody really knows what's going on and many of the things that I thought I understood, I'm now questioning which makes me feel and look less than professional. I was under the impression that all the LEO only stuff went away when the federal law expired, but based on what I've read in a couple of places, I'm not too sure anymore, at least with regard to the Colt 9mm rifle. It really isn't any different than any other AR type rifle. It does have features that were not available to the civilian market during the ban, but I was under the impression that shouldn't matter now. The ATF, however, had a different story. When I was talking with the agents, I brought up the LEO only magazines as a comparision, thinking that this distinction was now irrelevant. The agents quickly corrected me, saying that if it says LEO only, that's what it means, and as a seller I have to maintain the same procedures that were in effect during the ban. After I recovered from that shock, I said, well, if it is a matter of the LEO only marking, what about the fact that this rifle isn't marked, but its possible that it should have been marked and asked again, how I find out if it is LEO only. The agents suggested I pay for a Colt archive search. I then asked about taking off the offending features that made it LEO only during the ban, and they said, that wouldn't work. Their point was that if it were supposed to have been marked LEO only, it will always be LEO only regardless of the configuration. At this point, I think the easiest thing for me to do is just sell it to another LEO and stop worrying about it.
Now for the MP5. With regard to the features, it is semi-auto only and there appears to be no provision on the frame for a third position of the little lever. There are only the two marks that HK uses for safe and fire. It is marked MP5. It has a 16 barrel, which admittedly looks strange and all out of proportion, and a fixed shoulder stock. For all appearances it is just a black rifle, but it has this pistol grip forearm. I haven't looked for the standard forearm, but I seems that this will be the easiest solution.
Thanks again for all your input. Any more thoughts and/or info. on the LEO only issue would be helpful for later reference. At this point, I'm just going to sell the Colt to a LEO and put a standard grip on the HK.0 -
I feel that you are missing part of the problem. If the firearm you are talking about is truly LEO only per what the ATF told you if you sell it to ANYONE INCLUDING LEO with out the "Proper paperwork" you would still be in violation of federal law for having bought it let alone selling it. Once the 94' ban took effect as a dealer you had to have a letter from an "approved agency" (LEO, FED, STATE,ect) stating that the firearms were for them. Without this you would be in violaton of FEDERAL LAW. I am not totaly sure but I belive LEOs could sell these itmes privately between themselves. I belive this letter went out to all FFL holders last year so you may have seen it but her you go http://www.atf.gov/firearms/091304openletter.htm. It is the letter the ATF sent out stating that the FEDERAL AWB was over. Mags and firearms marked LEO/export only were labled as such to show that they were post ban at the time. Now that the ban is over anyone can own any sized magazines or guns with "preban" features, again from a FEDERAL stand point. I didnt see in the ATF letter were it stated anything about LEO marked stuff being legal or illegal to sell now, but what I do know it is selling like crazy and LEO marked stuff seems to sell at least 15% over non-LEO marked stuff.
Again for the HK it is a rifle and nothing more, as far as I am aware there has never been any laws making it illegal to put a foward pistol grip or 10 for that matter on any rifle. If you feel the need to change the forarm do it but I am sure it will bring more money with the front grip.
Keep in mind I am not an FFL but I have spent alot of time studying this kind of stuff since it is what I like to buy and I want to be 100% legal aobut it.
John0 -
quote:Originally posted by drsck
Dear Fellows:
Thanks for all your thoughts. Sorry to have left out a few of the important details. I'm in Ohio and we don't have a state-wide AWB, but the major cities all have bans, so we have to be careful about specifically where our customers live. If you live on one side of a street, a firearm is perfectly legal, but if you live fifty feet across the street inside the city, you're in violation.
I think this is how government and the anti-gunners want us pro-gun people to live. Fearful of accidently violating one of the uncountable gun laws or gun laws that make litte sense or are too difficult to totally understand.
quote:
I was under the impression that all the LEO only stuff went away when the federal law expired, but based on what I've read in a couple of places, I'm not too sure anymore, at least with regard to the Colt 9mm rifle. It really isn't any different than any other AR type rifle. It does have features that were not available to the civilian market during the ban, but I was under the impression that shouldn't matter now. The ATF, however, had a different story. When I was talking with the agents, I brought up the LEO only magazines as a comparision, thinking that this distinction was now irrelevant. The agents quickly corrected me, saying that if it says LEO only, that's what it means, and as a seller I have to maintain the same procedures that were in effect during the ban.
Well, if there still is some goofey reason to honor Clinton's expired assualt weapons ban I don't know about it. Doesn't that ATF agent understand the word "expired". Besides, part of the AWB didn't expire, IT ALL did. I think what the ATF agent said about having to handle LEO only mag sales is probably totally false and he/she should have known better. I work at a US Govt. agency on a daily basis (I'm NOT a government employee) and I see a lot of idiots working there that couldn't even do a good job working in private enterprise. But because they have a government job they get away with being stupid and not knowing what they are doing or talking about. Many of those employees also dress and look like street people. Don't want to say the agency name, but it would be a big, big surprise to you.
If there is still some effect from the AWB rregarding selling LEO mags, a whole lot of good companies and people don't know about it.
quote:
Their point was that if it were supposed to have been marked LEO only, it will always be LEO only regardless of the configuration. At this point, I think the easiest thing for me to do is just sell it to another LEO and stop worrying about it.
Let's never start to think of LEO's as some kind of high priest and if you buy something illegal you can "absolve" yourself of any "crime" simply buy selling/giving it to some LEO. LEO's are just citizens who have a particular job. A job working for the citizens.
In regards to the "Once marked LEO, always LEO" what about guns that are sold that even have particular police departments stamped into the frame or slide? How is it that is legal if the "always LEO Use" is not legal? Doesn't make sense to me.
And what about all the military surplus sold to the public but still with military marking on it? Similar to this "always LEO" crap from that BATF agent to me.
quote:
Now for the MP5. With regard to the features, it is semi-auto only and there appears to be no provision on the frame for a third position of the little lever. There are only the two marks that HK uses for safe and fire. It is marked MP5. It has a 16 barrel, which admittedly looks strange and all out of proportion, and a fixed shoulder stock. For all appearances it is just a black rifle, but it has this pistol grip forearm. I haven't looked for the standard forearm, but I seems that this will be the easiest solution.
Lawful, honest gun owners/dealers shoudn't have to worry this much or have to try and sort out overly complicated situations created by the very government that is supposed to work for us.
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HK never sold a semi auto 9mm carbine marked MP5. You still need more facts... who made it? How long is the barrel? Is it all barrel or fake silencer, etc? If it is HK made and has a 16" bbl chances are it is a remarked HK94. Frame markings don't a machine gun make... does it have the front push pin on the lower trigger housing? If so, does it actually pin through a hole in the front of the receiver? Or, is it simply a front clip on with the pin in the rear? 0 -
Yes, HK does make a Semi-Auto MP5. The current MP5 can me configured with an SA trigger group. Even though it is SA, it is still classified as a machine gun. The Colt, from the info you have given, is perfectly legal for you to sell to anyone. The officer that told you "once LEO always LEO" was mistaken, or was talking about full-auto guns. He was also wrong about the mags, unless you have local laws that state you cannot sell LEO mags. Don't always believe what LE officers or ATF agents tell you, many times they don't understand the laws they are suppose to enforce.
"My faith, my country and my family will guide me; nothing more, nothing less" -Gen. Tommy Franks0 -
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
Like Meanie said putting a second vertical grip on a pistol would in fact make an AOW and subject to the NFA rules.
Since when does adding a second grip to a pistol make it an AOW???
The recently expired "assault weapons" ban prohibited second grips on pistols, but that's done with.
Read the NFA definition of "Any other weapon":
Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm
The bold type is my addition. The AOW term only applies to smooth bore firearms and has no relationship to the number of vertical/pistol grips.
What source(s) of information are you using to conclude that a second vertical grip on a pistol makes it a NFA weapon?
"Strength is the outcome of need; security sets a premium on feebleness." -- H.G. Wells (The Time Machine)0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mooseyard
Yes, HK does make a Semi-Auto MP5. The current MP5 can me configured with an SA trigger group. Even though it is SA, it is still classified as a machine gun.
That is still a machinegun, like I said. There is no semi MP5 from HK no matter what you do to the trigger group they're all machineguns.
quote:Originally posted by competentone
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
Like Meanie said putting a second vertical grip on a pistol would in fact make an AOW and subject to the NFA rules.
Since when does adding a second grip to a pistol make it an AOW???
Yes, adding the grip to a pistol makes it an AOW. Was ok at one time, but ATF reinterpreted the laws so now a front pistol grip on a handgun makes an AOW.0 -
quote:Since when does adding a second grip to a pistol make it an AOW???
quote:Originally posted by vicg1
Yes, adding the grip to a pistol makes it an AOW. Was ok at one time, but ATF reinterpreted the laws so now a front pistol grip on a handgun makes an AOW.
Can you please cite the law stating this.
"Strength is the outcome of need; security sets a premium on feebleness." -- H.G. Wells (The Time Machine)0 -
I cant find it at the moment but the ATF's definiton of a Pistol states that it has "A SINGLE" I belive downwared protruding grip. I belive it becomes a default AOW by not being a pistol when it has more then one protruding grip, or anothter type of defined firearm. I do know that AOW has a pretty short discription but it is also a catch all for any firearm that dosent fit into the 7 other main defiinitions (pistol, rifle, shotgun, SBR, SBS, DD, or machingun).
John0
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