7.65 x 53 cartridge
7.65 Belgian or 7.65 Argentine (7.65 x53mm)
I'm curious to know about the characterics of this cartridge. For instance, it was once a chambering in Winchester m.54 rifles, but was discontinued in the 1930s. It's very close to the 30-06 in performance so ...Why?
Does anyone out there have a newer action with a new barrel in this caliber that they reload for? How accurate is this caliber? It's dimensions are close to the 308, so is it as accurate as the 308 if loaded correctly with a match bullet (like sierra's match 184 grain)?
Does anyone know of any wildcat versions of this round? Is there an Ackley Improved version out there somewhere?
I've read the production history of the 1891 and 1909 Argentine rifles and I'm wondering what the round is capable of if fired through a custom barreled rifle with minimum tolerances. According to the history book, the round was designed by Paul Mauser in 1889. The Argentine military chose it because in tests it proved superior to their enemy's caliber the 7 x 57. ...they were in an arms race with Chile at the time.
Thank you for any information you can provide.
WR1
I'm curious to know about the characterics of this cartridge. For instance, it was once a chambering in Winchester m.54 rifles, but was discontinued in the 1930s. It's very close to the 30-06 in performance so ...Why?
Does anyone out there have a newer action with a new barrel in this caliber that they reload for? How accurate is this caliber? It's dimensions are close to the 308, so is it as accurate as the 308 if loaded correctly with a match bullet (like sierra's match 184 grain)?
Does anyone know of any wildcat versions of this round? Is there an Ackley Improved version out there somewhere?
I've read the production history of the 1891 and 1909 Argentine rifles and I'm wondering what the round is capable of if fired through a custom barreled rifle with minimum tolerances. According to the history book, the round was designed by Paul Mauser in 1889. The Argentine military chose it because in tests it proved superior to their enemy's caliber the 7 x 57. ...they were in an arms race with Chile at the time.
Thank you for any information you can provide.
WR1
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quote:Originally posted by Wolfriver1
The Argentine military chose it because in tests it proved superior to their enemy's caliber the 7 x 57. ...they were in an arms race with Chile at the time.
Thank you for any information you can provide.
WR1
Don't know where you picked up the above phantasy, but it's so much horse pucky. The Chileans didn't adopt the Model 1895, 7 x 57mm Mauser until years after the Argentines had gone to the Model 1891 in 7.65 X 53mm.
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...this "phantasy" comes from a book entitled Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1959 by Colin Webster, copyright 2003. C. Webster reports that the Argentine military wanted a bullet that could hit the enemy first at long range. The original 215 grain (.312) bullet could reach about 50+ yards farther than the 175 grain (.284) bullet. At the time the ability to hit the enemy first was thought to create a demoralizing effect. I can understand that. In the photocopied records of the comparison tests between the two rounds it looks to me like the actual bullet spreads are quite close. Thus my question, is anyone loading this round with today's powders and bullets and consequently what accuracy is it capable of? 0 -
Wolf,
This is the first I've ever heard of it. At first I thought maybe it was a typo and you meant "7.62 x 51."
Check out the "Paintball forum." That's the pseudonym the Reloading forum operates under around these parts.0 -
I shot some in my first Mauser before chambering my Argentino 1909 to .257 Roberts. The guy who sold it to me some ammo for it(.311?). We chrono'd the rounds and got close to but not the same velocity as the 30-06.
I think it would stand to reason that a similar comparison can be made between it and the 30-06 as the .308 is often compared to the 30-06. The more compact case can bring the lighter bullets close to the same velocity with faster powders but when heavier bullets are used the 30-06 begins to separate it's advantage. Although the slightly larger diameter of the 7.65 makes up some of the advantage lost.
Just for fun I think it would have been a lot of fun to reload this cartridge.
Not to change the subject but I think that the long distance reach ability discussed by Wolfriver1, of a rifle, is a lesson long forgotten by our military 'thinkers'
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>0 -
You can look the cartridge up in the Sierra Reloading Manual Edition V (page 631). Ken Waters also has an article on it in his Pet Loads book (page 351)(article in Handloader, 1971) ...a recent Shotgun News issue also had an article on the round (June 1, 2005, pages 18-20).
Thank you for telling me about the paintball forum. I'll go there next.
WR10 -
quote:Originally posted by Wolfriver1
...this "phantasy" comes from a book entitled Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1959 by Colin Webster, copyright 2003. C. Webster reports that the Argentine military wanted a bullet that could hit the enemy first at long range. The original 215 grain (.312) bullet could reach about 50+ yards farther than the 175 grain (.284) bullet. At the time the ability to hit the enemy first was thought to create a demoralizing effect. I can understand that. In the photocopied records of the comparison tests between the two rounds it looks to me like the actual bullet spreads are quite close. Thus my question, is anyone loading this round with today's powders and bullets and consequently what accuracy is it capable of?
Mr Websters book obviously has some creditability problems, since the Argentines adopted the 7.65 X 53mm cartridge and the 1891 Mauser Rifle to fire it, (4) years before the Chileans had the 7 X 57MM cartridge and Mauser Model 1895 rifle.0 -
Wolfriver, leaving aside the dubious assertions of this Webster fellow, Norma, at least, still produces this ammunition. HOWEVER, the Argentine Mauser is obviously an earlier design than the venerable M98 and anyone loading commercially for it must allow for the possibility of it being used in a weakened action, so taking advantage of "today's powders and bullets" is not going to translate into a powerful load comparable to the .30-06.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
Wolfriver1,
"...but was discontinued in the 1930s. It's very close to the 30-06 in performance so ...Why?"
Simple, market performance. It didn't sell enough. The '06 ammunition was plentiful and chambered worldwide, even by the venerable Mauser factory. That combined with a significantly larger selection of bullets, is enough to change people's minds as to cartridge selection. And as some enjoy pointing out around here, '06 was available in every hardware store in every tiny town in America. It still happens with chamberings being dropped from production. The bean counters run the joint.
"...newer action with a new barrel in this caliber."
Unlikely but anything is possible these days when wildcatters get a wild hair... Lothar Walther USA does produce high quality barrels for this diameter and there are some decent bullets being made.
"How accurate is this caliber?"
This is an unknown quantity. Accuracy is made up of a whole bunch of variables besides a cartridge and one Match bullet. You would have to build one to see and even then, the claim to any accuracy would be limited to that rifle, that set-up and that shooter. You can't make a blanket statement. You can with the .308 because there are 10's of thousands of them being shot in competitions, proving that cartridge's accuracy when fired in a properly assembled firearm.
"It's dimensions are close to the 308..."
I wouldn't make that extrapolation. Size and shape don't carry the entire weight of the accuracy argument, although the benchresters try to prove this all of time by mimicking the PPC case. The Sierra Matchking for the 7.65 weighs 174 grains not 184 as you state. This is the only match style bullet that I could locate but I didn't check all of the European resources that could have something. I personally won't build a target rifle based on the availability of just one Match bullet.
Wildcats? Ackley Improved? None that I know of but folks wildcat everything these days and I'll bet that someone somewhere has an Ackley version just because they can. The case is suitable for improving but the again the lack of bullet selection makes it a bit of a drawback for that reason. The gain in powder space would put it right in with the x57 cases, so why bother?
The case is in between the .308 Win. and all of the other European developed cartridges in the x54, x55, x56 and x57 configurations. It's kinda like splitting hairs just so a government can be different and maybe gain an edge over some other army. The tactical advantage could be that no one else could use your ammunition. But you couldn't use theirs either.
There isn't anything wrong with this cartridge but it can't compete with the availability of .308 Win. products.
Best.0 -
I USED TO HAVE, AND LOAD FOR ONE OF THESE (A DANDY M-1909 CARBINE, LOST IN A FIRE). LIKE THE OTHER SAID IT IS JUST ABOUT 1/2 WAY BETWEEN THE .308 AND .30/06. BACK WHEN, WE CHANGED A LOT OF 1909'S FROM 7.65x53 TO .30/06 BY JUST RECHAMBERING THEM (THESE USUALY SHOT VERY WELL EVEN WITH A .308" BULLET IN A .311" BORE). CASES ARE EASY TO MAKE BY JUST SHORTENING '06 BRASS AND RESIZING. 0 -
Thank you, Nononsense, for the information. You're right the Sierra bullet is 174 grain, not 184 as I "typoed." Also, thank you for mentioning Lothar Walther barrels as a source. Your point about an improved case capacity being comparable with the x57s is also appreciated. It appears that building a rifle on this cartridge would be for the sake of novelty more than to find some hidden edge. And, of course, novelty can be fun.
Do you know of any "pet loads" for this caliber with the 174 grain bullet? Could you recommend a powder to start out with? In looking through the loading manuals it seems that IMR 4064, and Accurate 2520 could work. Thoughts?
Thanks again,
WR10 -
I have reloaded the 7.65x53 Argentine for years. The 91 model is an old design and not as strong as the model of 1909 , however Ive never had problems with one of them. The 1909 Argentine model 98 is regarded by many experts as the best of all the 98"s in quality of workmanship. They were made in peacetime, in Berlin, under contract with the Argentine govt.
The factory tried to outdo themselves in fit and finish on these rifles. The 1909 is the first choice of many quality smiths in building a custom high grade rifle. If you have one you have a great rifle. The round lies in between the 308 / 30/06 and Ive owned probably a dozen and never had one that wasnt accurate. the only dis advantage is the ammo or brass is not available as more common rounds. Sierra makes a good 150 gr. 311 bullet that works fine for me . Ive shot several deer with it and results are same as 308 or 30/06. accuracy is sub inch @ 100 yds consistently . I wouldnt ever chamber a rifle in it but if you find a deal on one dont hesitate to buy it. Or call me ,Ill buy it if its a bargain.0 -
Wolfriver1,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with building a rifle around this cartridge whether it is a novelty or not. The 7.65 x 53 is perfectly viable on its own merits even though it has similarities to other cartridges. Many cartridges are inter-related or share some commonality.
Graf & Sons have this brass in stock along with dies.
Powders I would start with would be:
1) Re-15
2) V V N-140
3) IMR-4895
4) AA-2520
Use these references below for addition load development.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/765mau.php
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/765mauser/
AA-2520 = http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/765mauser/2520-174.html
IMR-4064 = http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/765mauser/4064-174.html
Best.0
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