9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer cases
Has anyone ever formed 9.5x57 M-S from any other brass? I have found a source for reloading dies, and ordered them (still waiting). Brass cases seem to be a long hold-up, and quite expensive. I thought perhaps they could be formed from something else more readily available. I also need to find reloading data for 250 gr cast gas-check bullets and 270 gr jacketed soft point bullets. I'd like to put my Model 1910 M-S back on the firing line! It's just too classy an old rifle to relegate to "wall-hanger", and it deserves to go hunting again. I did try Old Western Scrounger, they listed both dies and loaded ammo, but after a long wait, further inquiry to them came up with "Sorry, can't provide".
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Do you mean 9x56 M-S or 9x57 Mauser? Relatively easy to make the 9x57 - use a taper expansion head to open up the necks of 8x57 brass (you may have to turn off some excess brass). Same case dimensions other than the bullet size. You can make 9x56 from .30-06, although it requires a *lot* more work. You can buy case forming tools from RCBS although they are not really necessary.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
I have seen the term 9.5x56mm M-S, but more commonly it seems to be called the 9.5x57 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer. I do not believe it is the same as the Mauser cartridge, though I don't have any of those to try/measure, etc. It was, I believe, exclusive to the M-S Model 1910. Bore diameter is .375" exactly; a chamber cast would seem to verify the 57 mm case length. 0 -
9.5 x 57 MS (9.5 x 56.5/ 9.5 x 56)
The 9.5x57 Mannlicher Schoenauer caliber was introduced in 1910 for the M-1910 M-S rifle. It was primarily considered an African game cartridge at the time. It was the last proprietary cartridge introduced by M-S (although some consider the .376 Styer one) and one of their largest.
The 9.5x57 MS is also known as the 9.5x56 MS, 9.5x56.7 MS, and the .375 Rimless Nitro Express x 2-1/4". Records show the factory cartridge as launching a 270gr bullet at between 2,150fps and 2,250fps.
The cartridge was not considered adequate for the "Big 5" in Africa, it was well liked for thin skinned, but dangerous game, including the lion. This may be because of the quick handling characteristics of the gun it was chambered in. The M-1910 is short, light, and quick handling. The stock sights are outstanding for short-range "snap" shooting.
9.5x57 MS brass is available (at this writing) from Horneber and from Bertram. However, it is the easiest cartridge I have ever reformed and can be fashioned from a variety of easy to obtain and inexpensive cases (such as the 30-06, .35 Whelen, 8x57 Mauser, 9.3x57 Norma, and several other cases). The cartridge is chambered in a gun that normally weighs between 6-1/4# and 6-1/2# so the recoil is noticeable.
This text is based on information from "Cartridges of the World", Hodgdon reloading manual, the cartridge designer and/or own resources.
Loads:
http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=250&BulletWeight=270&LoadID=8448
http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=250&BulletWeight=270&LoadID=8385
From Kynoch Ammunition:
http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/ (select Kynoch cartridge range, then select the cartridge labeled 9.5 MS)
Brass:
http://www.huelsen-horneber.de/frame_engl.html
Dies are available from CH4D:
http://www.ch4d.com/0 -
Thanks for the information. I suspected from chamber cast that the .30-06 case head size was right, but didn't know about extractor groove shape and dimensions. The dies are coming from the source you mentioned. I had hoped someone here would have direct hands-on information, and I appreciate your response. 0 -
Paul,
I didn't think that there was any need to go into the hands on dissertation of case formimg since this particular cartridge is so straight forward. Besides, there is a minority here that thinks if it doesn't come from a book or magazine that it can't be true, so...
If you use 8x57 brass, this is just like the re-sizing step in in your reloading except that I would anneal the necks of new brass and I would use two (2) different expander balls or one (1) tapered expander of the appropriate size. Check the Sinclair International website, they have an expander set up that uses a base die and some interchangeable expanders that are solid, they don't depend on a threaded rod. This is an exceptional system that I use frequently when I convert brass, which is nearly all of the time.
Here it is:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading.html
NT-EXP
Sinclair Expander Body (Does Not Include Mandrel)
Your Price: $ 17.75
NT-AX
Sinclair Neck Turning Mandrels
Your Price: $ 7.95
E-XX
Sinclair Oversized Mandrels
Your Price: $ 7.95
Make sure that you know how to adjust your dies correctly in the first place. It is paramount that you don't push the shoulder back on your brass because of headspace problems.
Expand the necks up, trim slightly, deburr and Voila! I use a powdered graphite from Sinclair for the neck expanding:
IMP-D
Imperial Dry Neck Lube 1 oz. Tin
Your Price: $ 3.95
A little goes long way and be careful not to sneeze! It will go everywhere and get into everything. Wash your hands after using. If you plan on doing a lot of this, I would get the Imperial Sizing Wax as well:
IMP
Imperial Sizing Die Wax 2 oz Tin
Your Price: $ 5.25
If you are going to use 30-06 or 35 Whelen brass, you will need the additional steps of cutting off the extra brass length and very likely turning some excess brass off of the necks. However, given the price of 8x57 or 9.3x57 brass, I wouldn't think that you would have to go that far.
Good Luck and enjoy the process!0 -
I appreciate the additional information and insights. It would seem most logical to use 8x57 brass, the neck turning process has not always been simple for me in the past (I used to form .219 Donaldson Wasp brass from 30-30 a long time ago), and the .35 Whelan/.30-06 would need it, I'm sure. The 9.5x57M-S just has to be extremely headspace critical due to the very small shoulder. And, the Sinclair site, as well as the additional products you mentioned, will be quite helpful. Thank you! 0 -
I have a 1910 M-S carbine with a Lyman #36 swing away peep sight that has alway been my favorite Mannlicher to shoot. I simply have necked up new 8X57 brass in 2 steps. CH/4D is a great company that makes quality custom dies at a price that is 1/4 of what other companies charge. The have done us all a great favor. BTW you might have to trim the cases slightly after the necking up process. 0 -
Mr. Black, I have exchanged messages with you before, and indeed you helped me make a model identification of my rifle. It's good to know that you shoot yours, and enjoy it. I will, of course, trim to length after forming, as required. Thanks too for your input! It is great that this forum exists with folks willing to help and inform, especially on a subject such as mine which is far from the mainstream. 0 -
Somewhere in the mess I call my gunroom, there is a box of Winchester ammo marked 9.5X57 for Mauser or Mannlicher. As far as I can determine the Mauser cartridge never existed. It was things like this that caused confustion. In truth, there is so little difference between the 2 9MM cartridges that I can understand why Winchester made 1 cartridge for both calibers. For many years DWM listed the 9MM cartridges as #s 491A and 491E and the only difference was that the MS version was a lighter load. 
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Jim,
"If 30-06 chambers then just fire a .308 bullet..."
9.5 x 56.5(57) is 2.244".
30-06 or 7.62 x 63 is 2.495".
The 30-06 case will not chamber in the 9.5 x 57 chamber.
2.495" - 2.244" = 0.251" not .005
The posts above have the correct fireforming procedure covered twice. Any of the x57 cases can be used for fireforming or mechanically forming simply since the case heads and rims match the 9.5 x 57 case.
Regards.0 -
The information Nononesense posted has proven exceptionally helpful and right-on accurate. I was able to obtain reloading dies from CH4D at a reasonable price, and also an neck-expanding taper die. Using new Remington-Peters 8x57 mm Mauser brass, the neck expansion process was 100% reliable and simple, having first lubed the inside case neck with dry graphite lube. I trimmed all cases for uniformity and chamfered the necks slightly inside and out. A CH4D "M" die opened the neck slightly to allow easy bullet seating. Using reloading information provided, a starting load of IMR 4064 powder was used with a Hornady 270 gr round-nose jacketed bullet, seated to crimp into the cannelure. Overall length fit easily into the magazine, and rotated up from the Mannlicher-Schoenauer magazine flawlessly. Recoil was "noticeable" but about as expected, and accuracy was quite respectable. There was some slight fire-forming of the 8x57 brass at the shoulder to fill the 9.5x57 chamber, which the resizing die leaves mostly in place, so that die must be quite closely patterned to the chamber. Further load experimentation by increasing slightly the powder charge may (?) bring point of impact up to the iron sights regulation, right now impact is slightly below point-of-aim at 100 yards. The only real glitch with the CH4D dies was the bullet seating and crimping procedure had to be separated due to the long dimensions of the bullet seating plug and the thread length of the die, in combination with the location of the crimping shoulder of the die, but a minor problem. I was very pleased overall, thankful to all who have helped with information on my cherished little rifle, and hope to take the rifle afield in search of Pennsylvania's "dangerous game" species! 0 -
Paul,
Congratulations! What a terrifically good time you must be having with your 'new' rifle. Let us know how the load work up goes.
Best.0
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