12 Gauge Home Defense
I'm sure you folks have hashed this over many times. What is the best 12 guage load for self defense? I know that the first shot should be non-lethal: beanbag, or rubber. This lets the courts know we at least tried to be soft and loving to our assailant. But then, what next? A target load would also let the courts know we didn't want to kill the assailant too bad. Or a hunting load?
I have access to flechettes, and other assorted nasties, via www.cheaperthandirt.com.
Shoot, Shovel, and Shut-Up
I have access to flechettes, and other assorted nasties, via www.cheaperthandirt.com.
Shoot, Shovel, and Shut-Up
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The "first shot should be non-lethal" is strictly fiction. There has never been a legal case involving self-defense where the choice of ammunition was a consideration. If you shoot anything at a person, it is assumed that your intent was to kill him.
Most LEO's use 00 buck shot, but they may have to fire at greater range, & at perp's in cars. Civilians use a wide variety of loads. I wouldn't use a shotgun in my house, with any ammo, because of the danger of overpenetration or stray pellets hitting the neighbors. A shotgun can be difficult to use at close range, &, despite popular belief, must be carefully aimed because of the small pattern at short range.
I prefer a handgun for self defense. For every person assaulted by a stranger in his home, there will be 1,000 assaulted in the streets. If you keep a gun in your house, but go outside unarmed (especially in high crime areas), you need to reconsider where the threat to you really is.
Good reading on this subject is "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.
Neal0 -
I use low brass #6 for my home shotgun. Fine pellets will destroy the target at close range. 0 -
If the threat is far enough away that birdshot would not be effective, he's not a threat. My nearest neighbor is way out of shotgun range, and there's just the two of us, so I have no qualms about keeping my "grab first" gun next to the bed loaded with #4 buck. And yes, I keep one in the chamber. Not that I think that it's appropriate for everyone.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.0 -
#9 or #8.
bird shot not lethal you ask? have a buddy shoot you with some up close and see what happens.
buck and ball too much kick. will cause flinch. ive seen people miss TOTALLY with buck.
just a thought,,,i hope you have a junker for a house. you get into a firefight with a shotgun, kiss your walls goodbye.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
I prefer to use #4 shot in mine. I shoot my guns regulary so I know how my shotgun acts. I also keep my .45 close by to. But for in the dark where you can't get a good bead on the subject a shotgun is best. But when the intruder hears the action of a 12 guage being slammed shut he knowes he better get out or he's in deep you know what.
Veritas vincit "Truth conquers"0 -
the myth of letting a perp hear your gun slamming closed is a farse. it wont scare him, it just signals him to draw and prepare to engage you. REAL STUPID. you let him stumble on to your safe position then KILL HIM.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
Non-lethal first shot!? Not on MY life! I load 12ga-3" 00buck. Anyone coming at me in my house is going to get a face full. 0 -
As far as a shotgun go's, Bobski's info is right on... especially MISSING. Some folks hold the 'scattergun' mentality a little too far. I'm not sure WHAT the 'best' thing is, it is different for different people.
These discussions come up regularly, and all machismo asside, remember your object is to KILL THAT PERSON. If there is the slightest idea in your mind about 'winging them', or the hope that a warning shot will do the trick, don't pick up a gun. If you cannot follow through the best thing you can do is run like hell. It is no big deal admitting that you don't think you can kill someone eyeball to eyeball. Be assured, regardless of the necessity, it will stay stuck in your mind.0 -
Never fire a warning shot, non-lethal shot or anything else. No verbal warning or any warning of any kind. Just identify them as someone not supposed to be there, make sure they are totally inside your house and shoot to kill. Anything else is just giving them the chance to kill you and your family or worse. No court in the land will convict you for shooting someone IN YOUR home. Jim
Jim Kammerer0 -
Number 8 shot is ideal for home defense. It will not pose a risk to neighbors. At ranges inside a house a load of birdshot is the most lethal load going.
I saw many, many gunshot wounds in my career as a Paramedic. I saw people survive shots that should have killed them. I saw a guy get two .38s in the lungs and live. I saw a guy take a 7mm mag in the thigh bone. He lived, but got the leg amputated. I saw a guy get four shots in the back from a .357 mag, all went through the lungs. He lived, the miracle patient of central Georgis.
I saw 18 people hit in the torso at close range with a single charge of birdshot. One was a kid hit in the back of the neck by a load of quail shot from a .410, accidental discharge by his brother.
Several were 20 gauge shots. Most were 12 gauge.
Every one of them died.0 -
I won't argue about what's the best, but I can say that a #6 load from a turkey choke looks to be pretty brutal at 15 yards. 0 -
As usual, Neal Myers gave some excellent advice. The reason you can use deadly force to protect yourself is because you are in fear for your life. In most states maybe all, you don't have to retreat, if retreat is possible, IF IN YOUR HOME. I think the objective in using deadly force is to incapacitate your assailant as quickly as possible. Whether or not the assailant is killed is not really relevent when you are using deadly force to protect yourself or someone else who is in fear for their life. In my 30 years in law enforcement I never had to shoot anyone but have been around many who did shoot and kill someone. I think it is generally true that whether or not you were justified in killing someone, it bothers you more than you would think it would. Some of those on this forum may have first hand experience in this and will probably have a more valid vewpoint than mine. 0 -
Just to show you just how lethal a shotgun can be at close range here is a story from last years dove hunt.
Two of the guys went out that morning and they walked up on some feral hogs crossing the jeep road.
One of the guys blasted an 80 pound sow at about 10 yards with a head hot and killed her dead as a hammer with his old Ithaca 37 using low brass #8.
When they told me the story i was flabbergasted that a tuff feral hog could be killed with birdshot so easily.
Then when it was explained to me that at that range the load had not even hardly gotten out of its wad and was really tight wad of pellets i understood.
So one very dead hog.
Shotguns are mean!!
I now keep it in my pump 12 guage at the house.
mike0 -
I must say, I've never heard of a "less-lethal" first shot. Once I start buying handguns, you can bet one will be near my head at night. Also, I've always figured against shotguns for home defense. Even if you stop the bad guy, you're still left with tons of damage to your home, that's stupid I love my home. Many of you will surely laugh, but my plan was this: use a .22 rifle(I don't have a pistols yet) and shoot his/her right shoulder(more people are right-handed). Next, three quick followups starting with the other shoulder then one to each knee. If you hit these marks successfully, they are incapacitated but alive. Alive is important because I've heard that statictically, you're more likely to mistake a family member for a thief. Now many of you, as I said, will start bashing this "plan" of mine. I welcome your opinions, however, bottom line is, no shotguns for me in the house no matter the load.[;)] 
To the rich, everything is a neccessity. To the poor, everything is a luxury0 -
Well to each their own.
But if i have to shoot i am shooting directly for the center mass.
mike0 -
mr bean....I think your concept is well meaning but it hink that in the heat of a situation like a home invasion you are going to be hard pressed to be so precise.....and what if he's left handed....and armed?.....I like my 12ga and load it with 00 for home defense...I just practicewith it alot so that the only overpenetration I have to worry about is what left coming out of the other side of the bad guy
imay not know it all.....but at least I know that!0 -
This is the "non-lethal" stigma: getting sued by the perp's family for having killed their "beloved angel", even though he was unwelcome in my home. My answer would be, "No, stupid. I bounced a bean bag off his head first, he kept coming, so then I killed him."
I have no trouble with pulling the plug on some *bleep*, other than the civil suits by the *bleep's* that tend to follow. I don't want to bring that muck onto my own family.
And I have no moral qualm with capping some jerk either. Remember, the Commandment is: Thou Shalt Not Murder, it is not Thou Shalt Not Kill. Any Rabbi will confirm that for you. (I'm not Jewish.)
Anyhow, thanks for the input.
Shoot, Shovel, and Shut-Up0 -
Shoot to wound? No thank you. Rather be judge by 12 than carried by 6. If you pull out your weapon you need to shoot to kill. No wounding, not wing em, or not scare em. Neutralize your threat. If a person gives you enough reason to pull the trigger on a non-lethal round you probably have enough reason to pull the trigger on #4 2 3/4 shell. 0 -
To spite the other posters...
Find a load that you know you can handle.
The knowledge of what you have and feel comfortable with is far more dangerous and lethal - than a tough-hitting heavy-load you're perhaps afraid to shoot under normal circumstances.
I'd choose whatever within the 00-Buck to #7shot range that shot good in the gun I choose for homeprotection.
If semi or pump.. do a test - does it cycle right and reliably.
Other than that - trust your equipment and know you can do great harm with what you got.
The more you trust your equipment - the less you need to think of in that given situation and that equals time saved which in the end, gives YOU the upper hand.
Polarbears walk a lonely path
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