.308 Break-In... Help!
I've just purchased a new heavy-barreled .308 Remington 700, and decided to use the shoot one-clean method of barrel break-in. My question is this, and no I've asked seems to know... Can I use cheap Mil surplus ball ammo to break in the barrel without any negative effects? The ammo is 7.62x51 British L2A2 ball from the late 80's, please help!!
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Using copper jacketed, non corrosive ammo should do the trick following most any break in procedure (you have no doubt seen previous posts). The important parts are what you do between firings, which is mostly polish and cool down. ENJOY
If we do not hang together,
We will most certainly hang separately.0 -
Personally I would not use military ammo to break in the barrel. 0 -
As long as the ammo is non corrosive milatary you should have no problems.
Just be sure to clean down to bare metal very good before shooting the next one. JB bore paste is a good final cleaner to get the last little bit of powder or copper fouling out.
Gun control is hitting what your aiming at.0 -
I use the most aggressive solvents I can during break-in periods. Sweets 7.62 is super quick on copper, and wipe-out is great on powder and copper especially with the new "accelarator". Getting that barrel perfectly clean between shots makes the process faster, and the faster you can get it clean, the better. After the first few rounds, a bit of Rem bore cleaner on a patch wrapped around a brush with 20-30 strokes will help speed the process up as well. Be sure to rinse that ALL OUT with a can of non-chlorinated break cleaner,...just remove the bolt, insert it into the chamber end and let it rip in all directions into the chamber and bore to run all the bore cleaner out the muzzle (rifle pointed towards the ground of course). When you can run 10rnds and see almost NO orange streaks on the rifling at the muzzle, with a bright light, you are pretty much there. When it can be cleaned with one patch and wipe-out, after say 30rnds, it is really good and smooth.[;)]
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Im planning to spend several hours breaking in so i can do the best job possible. I know the ball ammo i have isnt corrosive and at least of decent quality since it shot between 1 and 1-1/4 MOA in my last bolt .308. Im going to try some of your guys tips and only time will tell! 0 -
cwinn,
In my opinion, you should be o.k. shooting this ball ammunition. The restriction that most people put on the use of mil-surp ammo is that it shouldn't be corrosive.
"No damage will occur to the barrel when firing regular 7.62-mm ball ammunition."
from: "M24 7.62mm Sniper Rifle"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m24sws.htm
The shoot/clean procedure is supposed to smooth out the interior of a barrel. How this occurs, I'll never know because jacketed bullets are copper coated and copper is softer than the steel used in making barrels. Please don't take offense but this is silly if you ask me. There is the greater potential for more damage to be done during the cleaning than there are benefits from the "break in". Folks will ruin the crown and throat before the first cleaning is finished unless it is done correctly. Please be very careful, this is a good rifle. You need to read Gale McMillan's article on this. I'll include it below.
Best of luck!
From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Barrel break-in necessary?
Date: 7 Jan 1997 20:40:25 -0500
Mike Sumner wrote:
> ...
As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels
with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the
prescribed break in method A very large number would do more harm than
help. The reason you hear of the help in accuracy is because if you
chamber barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting
clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the
rifling. It takes from 1 to 2 hundred rounds to burn this bur out and
the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle
barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories
let them go longer than any competent smithe would. Another tidbit to
consider, Take a 300Win Mag. that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds.
Use 10% of it up with your break in procedure for ever 10 barrels the
barrel maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the
break in. no wonder barrel makers like to see this. Now when you flame
me on this please include what you think is happening to the inside of
your barrel during the break in that is helping you.
Gale McMillan
NBSRA IBS,FCSA and NRA Life Member
From: Gale McMillan <mcmillan@getnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Good barrels for Rem 700 in .308?Date: 10 Feb 1996 12:50:53 -0500
Consider this, every round shot in breaking in a barrel is one round off
the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical
reason of what happens during break in firing. In other words to the
number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the
barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by
shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off
with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden a
friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who
come up with the break in method. He may think he has come upon
something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel
that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that
deteriorates until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what
physically takes place during break in to modify the barrel then I may
change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel doesn't change
because of the break in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open
to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just
someone's opinion forget it.
Gale McMillan
From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 700 break in
Date: 8 Aug 1997 00:01:07 -0400
Arthur Sprague wrote:
# On 29 Jul 1997 22:50:26 -0400, whit@cs.utexas.edu (John W. Engel)
# wrote:
#
# #This is how (some) benchrester break in barrels, and it does work.
# #The mechanism is that the bore has pores in it (microns in size).
# #If you simply shoot a box or two through it without cleaning, the
# #pores fill up with gilding metal, and stay that way. If you
# #follow the above procedure (and they mean *clean* between shots!),
# #the pores are "smoothed over" with each successive shot. A barrel
# #correctly broken in is MUCH easier to clean than one that is
# #not. If it is a good quality tube, it will also be more accurate.
# #Regards,
# #whit
#
# Well, the range hours here are quite limited. On my first trip I
# managed to fire a whole fourteen rounds, with a thorough cleaning
# after each round. It couldn't hurt! Fun gun! Difficult to think of
# .223 as a battle round after experience with .30-06 and .45ACP, but it
# surely going to be a pleasure to shoot.
# Thanks to all for their advice.
This is total hogwash! It all got started when a barrel maker that I
know started putting break in instructions in the box with each barrel
he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help
and his reply was If they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel
that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just
figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point it
defiantly will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a
fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset bench rest world
records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at
one time) along with HighPower,Silloett,smallbore national and world
records and my instructions were to clean as often as posable preferably
every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel
before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I
see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from
normal wear and tear.I am even reading about people recommending
breaking in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the
guns.
Gale Mc.0 -
nononsense- Thank you very much for your thoughts and the article! Im going to look into this further... 0 -
nononsense has pointed out the major caveat to NOT KNOWING HOW to properly clean a barrel, and also of those folks who wish NOT TO purchase the correct equipment to do so. When cleaning barrels, if you do not use
bore guides (caliber specific preffered IMHO)
coated cleaning rods with bearing handles
brass jags
only very occasionaly a brush which must be bronze or brass or more preferably nylon and NOT STEEL!!
then you will be in the "danger zone". Misalignment of the jag in the chamber area causes it to "ding" the corners of the throat hurting accuracy, and the brush bristles with carbon grit and compound agents on them when dragged BACH THROUGH the muzzle and therfore ACROSS the crown, will also degrade accuracy as these areas are prematurely worn. Following the strict cleaning methods and taking the amount of time necessary to do so is one of the most important facets in the life of your rifle barrels. Plunging in with only half the right ideas will lead you down that path of lots of money to fix mistakes. I may only use brushes once a year anymore. The new copper and powder solvents make cleaning with just patches and jags very easy, and therefor protects much of the barrel by default.
I suggest you look at the Sinclair bore guides and solvent ports, I have been very happy with their design and useability. Their solvent bottles they make are also a pleasure to work with.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
NONONSENSE -did I read this right ?
The shoot/clean procedure is supposed to smooth out the interior of a barrel. How this occurs, I'll never know because jacketed bullets are copper coated and copper is softer than the steel used in making barrels. Please don't take offense but this is silly if you ask me.
I've never known anyone to say that the copper on the bullet was doing the work. As far as I have ever seen, the copper is at most a 'tell tale' of IF you need to polish out the areas that are shaving copper off. I believe that is done with a fine abrasive paste or slurry that contains very hard but very small particles.
As far as a custom bbl, I would hope that if someone went to break in a finely made bbl they would realize it was not necessary. If only because on the first swab down the bbl they would not find that there was much copper fouling...the bore was already very smooth.
Does this make sense ? Anybody ?0 -
gotstolefrom,
You would obviously be surprised to read how many shooters believe that it's the bullet that "wears" down the burrs and tooling marks in a barrel. When the break in procedures are written and discussed (frequently) on the internet and in the gun rags, the only mention is shooting and cleaning NOT the patching and polishing with bore compounds. The articles about polishing with bore pastes and compounds are usually written separately from the break in articles. It is NOT recommended to lap a barrel that has been chambered and crowned because the process will ruin both the crown and the throat of the chamber. Now, you can lap the existing barrel but you will have to set the barrel back and freshen the chamber then cut a new crown.
In actuality, it's the super heated plasma from the burning powder that "wears" away the microscopic machining burrs. If the barrel doesn't seem to respond to the break in procedure, the recommendation is usually to try the paste and polish routine because it is more than likely the tooling marks from the bore reamer that are coppering. Again, it is NOT recommended to do this to a barrel that is chambered and crowned.
Only some of the top button rifled barrel makers lap there barrels for best presentation and no break in worries. The cutrifled barrels are usually replete with micro burrs throughout the bore but the better makers generally hand lap the barrels with lead laps and progressively finer lapping compounds which can do away with break in as well. It is the factory barrels and the low to medium end barrels that require the attention to clean up the machining marks.
I hope that's clear, if not I'll try it again.
Best.0 -
As well as what NN said about the plasma, the copper you see during break-in is actually deposited there after it has been turned in to a particulate as the jacket is scarred and scraped while the pill slides over these rough spots and is "sanded down" so to speak. That plasma pretty much superheats the copper particulate and it adheres to the bore as it is cooled and the pressure/temp go to normal. It is not as simple as just being layed there as the bullet passes by. when the bore is smoothing out, it will show more on only the lands and be reduced to maybe 20% of what it was. This can usually be done quite quickly.
I do not use lapping compound, such as for rings or first passess in rough bores. I use the rem bore cleaner which is very fine, but enough to smooth over the very last little spots. I have run ring lapping compound through a very rough barrel which could only be helped by the process, but NEVER in a good barrel. I also NEVER allow the patch to come back and contact the muzzle crown, it is removed after it exits the bore and never exits more than 1x. Stroking the throat and crown areas is a NO-NO. A good barrel should require very little break-in as most of the blue on your patches will be from the cross-grained reamer marks at the edge of the throat and it was no doubt hand lapped before leaving the manufacturer. the first 10-20 firings will smooth that edge out and the fouling will immediately decrease dramatically. That blue is the particulate that I was talking about as it is in direct contact with the plasma as it leaves the case mouth and enters the throat. The sharp throat edge carves a bit of jacket material more than normal as the sharp edges grab it on it's way by. The plasma then pushes and deposits it all the way down the bore making you think it is the bore, when in actuality is the particulate deposited behind the bullet, under pressure, that originated mostly at the throat.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0
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