Can you explain this to me?
No one ever has explained this to me in plain English. Maybe I just don't get it. Why , for example, does a 357 sig have a lot more knockdown or stopping power than a 38 special or a .45 caliber when the latter two have a much larger powder charge? I just don't get it. How can a smaller cartridge be more powerful than a much bigger cartridge?? Isn't it true that a .357 sig will knock down a human or animal faster and better than a larger .38 special or a .45 caliber? Any help in making me actually understand this will be appreciated.
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No bullet will knock someone down. If the bullet had enough energy to knock someone over, then the person firing it would get knocked over too.
"My faith, my country and my family will guide me; nothing more, nothing less" -Gen. Tommy Franks
Jess Hoffman
Mooseyard Precision
LE Supply & Firearms
NRA Certified Instructor
Shawano, WI 541660 -
quote:Originally posted by beantole
No one ever has explained this to me in plain English. Maybe I just don't get it. Why , for example, does a 357 sig have a lot more knockdown or stopping power than a 38 special or a .45 caliber when the latter two have a much larger powder charge? I just don't get it. How can a smaller cartridge be more powerful than a much bigger cartridge?? Isn't it true that a .357 sig will knock down a human or animal faster and better than a larger .38 special or a .45 caliber? Any help in making me actually understand this will be appreciated.
Forget the .45 for the moment. We'll leave that out for simplicity.
If you compare a .38 special to a .357 sig, or better yet, a .357 Magnum, the .357 round is the same bullet as the .38 special. . .its just being shot out of a slightly longer cartridge.
So the .357 magnum bullet ends up flying faster and doing more damage to what it hits.
Its like the difference between if I were to throw a baseball at your chest or Pedro Martinez throwing the baseball at you! Pedro's ball is going to hurt a lot more because his is going to be going 95 miles per hour, and mine is going to be going 55 miles per hour (if I'm lucky).
Now when we get down to actual numbers, the .38 special will fire a 125 grain bullet at 900 feet per second, but a .357 magnum will shoot that same bullet at 1300 feet per second! That's a huge difference.
So thats the background. Here's the answer to your question. . .
Even though the .38 special has a pretty big cartridge, it isn't just the size of the cartridge that's important. . .its what kind of pressure does the cartridge develop on firing that matters in how fast the bullet leaves the gun.
The .38 special was originally designed in 1902 for revolvers. Even though the cartridge is relatively large, they didn't have the same kind of super-efficient powders then that we have now, and more important, they couldn't build guns quite as strong as we can today. So even though a .38 special has a big cartridge, its still a pretty wimpy round. The old .38 guns won't handle a lot more than that.
Now you take that exact same round and pack it with slightly hotter powder, and you get a 38+P with 30% more "juice'.
Pack the exact same cartridge with even hotter powder yet, and you've got a .357 magnum. But since this overpowered .38 special round might blow up ordinary .38 revolvers, the cartridge was designed to be a bit longer, just for safety sake so it wouldn't fit into .38 special revolvers. The point is, its not the size of the cartridge, its how hot the cartridge is loaded, and whether or not the gun can take it!
With the .357 Sig, the idea is the same. The cartridge itself may be smaller than a .38, but its loaded full of really fast-burning powder to get much higher pressures. The end result is a faster bullet, and more power when it hits the target.
As another example, just looking at the two of them side by side, you'd think a .38 special is a lot more powerful than a 9mm because the 9mm has a much smaller cartridge. The thing is, that's wrong! With similar bullet diameters and weights, the 9mm is actually MORE powerful than a stock .38 special because even though its has a smaller case, its loaded hotter.0 -
People are not knocked down by bullet power, it is their reaction to being hit that knocks them down. If you hung a cadaver up and shot it, it would hardly move at all because it cannot react to being shot.
Knockdown power is measured in foot/pounds or ft/lbs. Foot pounds is a measurement of bullet weight and velocity together. Just because a case is larger does not mean it has more powder in it.
The .357 sig shooting a 125gr bullet at 1350fps generates 506 ft/lbs of energy.
The .38 spl shooting the same weight bullet but at a slower 945fps generates only 248 ft/lbs of energy.
The .45acp shooting a 230gr fmj bullet at 835fps generates 356 ft/lbs of energy.
Yes the .357sig has more "knockdown" power because it shoots a very fast medium weight bullet.
Joe
"Never let school interfere with your education"0 -
A .38 special with a 125 gran JHP has 351pounds of energy at the muzzle and and the with the same bullet weight and with a volicity of 1350fps has about 520pounds of energy at the muzzle.
"A good scope can end a bad situation"0 -
Well, you know, I think I finally get it. The baseball example is good, I understand that a pro can throw a ball way faster and way harder than I ever can so he will hurt me more if he throws it at my chest than if my next door neighbor throws it at me. Makes simple sense to me. Thanks for the explanation to all who responded.
Bruce0 -
ballistics 0 -
You have seen Einstein's equasion E=MC2 right? OK the ballistic equasion is a little more complicated, but this one works for explaination. E=energy, M=mass, C is a constant. In Einsteins case it is the speed of light, but for our puropses it is the speed of the bullet. So you can change impact energy two ways: by increasing the mass, like changing from a 150 grain bullet to a 170 grain bullet, or you can change the speed the bullet is traveling. Notice that the speed of the bullet C is squared (multiplied by itself, right), so while changing the weight of the bullet adds 20 grains to the equasion, adding 100 fps to the speed of the bullet adds the square of 100 or 10,000 to the equasion. Thus the impact energy is increased much more dramatically by increasing the speed of the bullet than by increasing the size of the bullet. As I said that is not exactly the right ballistic equasion, but it sorta works and hopefully gets the point across.
Note to Admin: We need superscripting on here if you expect us to do math problems![:(!]0 -
A smaller cartridge can be more powerful that its bigger brother if it has more powder/ higher chamber pressures behind it. Just like the .25-06 and the .25WSSM. They cantain the same exact amount of powder but operate at different pressures. The .357 sig is nothing more than a .40 S&W cartridge necked down to .357, but using the same amount of powder as the .40 S&W. That is why it has more knock down power. Yes the .357 sig has more knockdown force than a standard .45acp. However if you take the .45acp case and neck it down to .40 S&W it will far exceed any .357sig due to more powder in the case. This setup is known as .400 corbon.
The .357sig has muzzel energy/ knock down force between the .38 and .357 magnum, but since it is in a smaller package I would go with the .357 sig. The sig sauer P229 in .357sig is an execellent gun for this round.
A lot has to also do with what kind of powder mix is used to push the bullet donwrange. Just like the .45gap. It has a shorter case, with only slightly less bullet weight, but more energy. Corbon saw this and jumped on it, now the .45acp +p has more power then ever. But be warned; if you go with one of these setups you will most likely be using a much lighter bullet than before. Like the .45acp is 230gr and the .400 corbon is 160gr. What I mean is that if you swap out barrels to take one of these loads be prepared to dratmatically adjust you sights on your gun. This was the case when I put a .400 corbon barrel in my 1911a1. I called corbon techinal staff as to why the rounds would print low on the target. They replied by saying the 1911a1 is rated for a 230gr slug a going to a light weight setup will cause problems as the gun does not have adjustable rear sights.
If your gun is specifically made for the .357sig or any other of these necked down cartridges, you will have no problem. Besides most modern guns come with adjustable rear sights and or you can buy a laser set-up.
" Those who give up a little freedom for temporary security, deserve neither freedom nor security "
- Benjamin Franklin0 -
You can also visit www.corbon.com and can go further in this on their website.
" Those who give up a little freedom for temporary security, deserve neither freedom nor security "
- Benjamin Franklin0 -
Lots of pretty good explanations here. I'd like to take a chance to throw in all the factors.
First, energy= Mass X velocity. Thats the formula that matters most coming out of the gun. Using a 170 gr. in the .357 @ 1300fps and a 230 gr. in the .45 @ 830fps. I show the .357 gets 638 ft. lbs. and the .45 gets .351 ft. lbs. A clear advantage to the .357
Second is the target ballistics. We no doubt have here the most overlooked formula in shooting, penetration vs. energy absorbtion.
The frontal area of a bullet has much to do with how much it wants to stop in the intended target. The smaller the bullet diameter the more it wants penetrate. Sometimes passing through and giving very little energy to the target.
This is compenstated for in smaller bullets by allowing the bullet to 'perform' as it strikes the target, i.e. mushrooming, thereby creating more frontal area. If the .357 and the .45 were both fired into a target at 10 yards with FMJ bullets it is likely the .357 would penetrate the perpetrator completely, nullifying the energy advantage it had. Bullet performance is the key to the .357's success. This issue was why the U.S. went back to a .45 during the Philipine conflict in the early 1900's from the .38. Due to the Hague convention performance bullets are outlawed for military purposes.
Third, knockdown power, it will knock you flat provided the bullet does it's job. Think of your target as a vertical lever, apply 350 or 630 ft. lbs. of instantaneous torque to the topside of it and it will move. The reason you are not knocked down is your firearm absorbs most of the energy created in reverse to the cartridge firing. (For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.) And, you are braced. -There's my $.02 dissertation.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>0
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