Question For Trap Shooters
OK guys, here is an easy question dealing with trapshooting. I am an avid trap shooter, although not very good at it! And I have been wondering about barrel lengths as compared to shot pattern when shooting trap.
Most trap ranges are set up, when shooting at the 16 yard line, to be hitting the bird at about the 40 yard mark. At that range, my shot pattern seems not to be fully expanded, and has definite "holes" in the pattern. So my question is, "what barrel length, with what choke in it, is the best for a tight consistent pattern at that yardage, on any given day?
is it better to go with a longer barrel, and a less constricted choke, or should it be a shorter barrel, with a more constricted choke?
This has been bugging me for the last five years, and I have not come across anyone that could explain it too me.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the help!
BigBarn[:o)]
"Respect the land, and it will respect you"
Most trap ranges are set up, when shooting at the 16 yard line, to be hitting the bird at about the 40 yard mark. At that range, my shot pattern seems not to be fully expanded, and has definite "holes" in the pattern. So my question is, "what barrel length, with what choke in it, is the best for a tight consistent pattern at that yardage, on any given day?
is it better to go with a longer barrel, and a less constricted choke, or should it be a shorter barrel, with a more constricted choke?
This has been bugging me for the last five years, and I have not come across anyone that could explain it too me.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the help!
BigBarn[:o)]
"Respect the land, and it will respect you"
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Big Barn, I hope you get a lot of answers because I need a lot of help too, Last week at the 16 yard line I hit 18, then we moved to the 21 yard line I hit 18, I use a Beretta 28" with improved modified. Les 0 -
I'm going to take some for my reply, but this is my opinion, and before I had to quit shooting several years ago because of back problems, I was
AA27A. and broke many 100 straight annd several 200 straight, and won many handicap and doubles events. Barrel length is a matter of choice, which ever you can handle best. If your breaking targets at 40 yards from the 16 yard line, you're too slow. Should break it at abut 32 yards. Personally I used a BT99, with a Briley light modified choke tube
and any misses were not the fault of th choke. You don't really need a tight choke, but one with an even pattern. Try different loads on the
pattern board and see which one patterns best. And ty breaking it sooner,
maybe hold a higher gun and let the target come up to you.0 -
length has nothing to do with it. all length does is change your sighting plane. some say length effects pressure, but not enough to be noticed at trap. duck hunting maybe with heavy field loads, but not trap shots. choke is 90% of the whole story. if you have holes in your pattern, you have a bad bbl or a bad load. if you have screw in chokes, you have a bad screw in choke or a bad load. do you shoot reloads or factory rounds? and then we'll take it from there.....
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
BigBarn,
You actually asked a very difficult question. There are many different factors at work here. I have been 'patterning' shotgun spreads on paper for over 20 years. Mainly to figure out why I could never drop a flying grouse. Believe it or not, for most grouse hunting conditions, EVEN IMPROVED CYLINDER chokes pattern far too tightly on flying birds (for most hunters). Most hunters would be shocked at how many more birds they would drop simply using a sawed off barrel. I have hit very few airborn birds using Modified or Full chokes, unless it is late in the season and the birds are flushing 30 or more yards out. But getting back to your basic question... in my experience, barrel length has very little impact on pattern density. The most important factor is the barrel constriction (i.e. the choke size). I have patterned 21 inch, 26 inch, and 28 inch remchoke barrels, both 12ga and 20ga, and regardless of barrel length, at any given distance, these three different barrel lengths have patterned similarly (on paper)when the same choke tube was used in all barrels. Many older hunters don't believe that you can get tight patterns with the shorter barrels. They are absolutely dead wrong. As proof of patterns staying tight even with shorter barrels, look at how many turkey hunters now solely use the 21 inch barrels, mainly for their quick pointing capabilities in the turkey blind. Any many of them are taking birds beyond 40 yards because of the extra tight patterns obtained with the extended turkey choke tubes. It is not the extra 1-2 inches gained by the extended tube. It is due to the much tighter choke constriction. Next most important item in how a particular barrel patterns is how much the lead shot is deformed as it is forced down the bore. The more deformed, the more wide fliers in the pattern. Each barrel will have its own sort of signature pattern for any given load, at any given distance. If you have great patterns on paper at 30 yards, with few 'holes' or 'voids', you also have to remember that not all the bb's hit the target at the same point in time. There is a horizontal stringing out effect of the shot pattern in real time. Hence, your pattern can be headed perfectly on course for the clay pigeon, but this stringing effect can cost you a 'hit', because of the 'voids' due to the instantaneous point in time nature of the entire pattern. At 30 yards, the shot string may extend over two to three feet horizontally. You can cut down on pellet deformation by going to hard copper plated lead or other 'harder' modern day substitute shot that all the manufacturers are making available (to replace lead). If you reload, you probably could cut back on powder charge for less deformation. You really have to try size 7 1/2, 8, and 9 shot with each of your choke tubes, and see which size shot patterns best on paper to begin with. Also, just because your gun patterns well with 7 1/2's with a modified choke at a certain distance doesn't guarantee that it will pattern well with 9's with same choke and same distance. You really have to spend some time getting to know your 'gun', if you get my drift. Not everyone will agree with what I have stated, but at least the ball is rolling now. This is what I have experienced first hand, using remington remchokes and hastings chokes tubes in both 12 and 20 ga barrels of various lengths. Hope this info was somewhat enlightening.0 -
Oh, I forgot to mention the super important factor of overall shotgun fit to the shooter. That will play a huge role as well. Not even sure if we want to open this 'can of worms'... But bascially, when you shoulder your shotgun, is your dominant shooting eye lining up perfectly centered behind the rib, such that the mid and front beads are centered nicely? Or do you see too little of the top of the rib, or you don't see the top of the rib at all? Shotgun stock fit is KEY, whether you are shooting clays or hunting birds. 0 -
I have to agree with most of the above, but if I remember, seems to me copper plated shot was not allowed by Trap Assoc. rules back in the 60's. But then again, I am probably bringing up outdated history, as I have not shot trap in many years. The fit and confidence you have in the gun plus just plain shooting more often will probably add more to hitting than anything. As Bobski says too, it does make a fair amount of difference in your recipe in reloads. Too often the "magic load" is loaded too hot, or the components wrong for the application. Found that one out the hard way. Wouldn't hurt to pattern a couple different chokes and loads at 30 or 40 yards. Also, like bt99 says, you probably need to "get on the bird" sooner and shoot sooner, espec. if you are pulling on a falling bird. Trigger flinch and no follow thru on the swing(stopping) will cause lots 'o trouble. 0 -
BigBarn, What are you using for ammo? Good ammo(not the cheap on sale at Wally world stuff) can make a big difference on your pattern and score. 
"Aim small, Miss small"0 -
I shoot 28 inch with Briley extended mod chokes, and it seems to make all the difference in the world. The flush chokes weren't working for me at all.
O Lord,
grant me the Serenity
to accept the things
I cannot change
the courage to change the things I can,
and the supreme firepower to make the difference.0 -
think about this when it comes to choke tubes, you twist them in. depending on how tight they are, if it doesnt go back in the right place everytime, your are twisting the pattern. follow me? and if you change choke tubes, you are changing choke design. to mean, ifthe lathe operator had a bad day, the choke tube itself may be defective. with fixed choke guns, this problem is eliminated. its one reason skeetmaster never got into the screw in choke game. once they are patterned, they are set. no offset threads screwed in crooked to worry about. no defective choke tubes to worry about. it hits the same every time. now once we hear back from the original owner about the gun he's shooting, we can proceed. if not...were all trying to diagnose without the patient telling us about his body. and at that pace, the poor guy will have cancer and we will cut both legs off when maybe all he needs is a change in diet. so, once again....what EXACTLY is the load you shoot and what kind of chokes are your shooting?
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
WOW, what a response! I had no idea that there were so many frustrated trap shooters out there!
First off, thanks to you all for your informative insight to my question. And to try and address most of the answers that were posted; Here goes:
I shoot trap twice a week, every week, and I am a mediocre shot at best. That said, I am consistent always shooting in the 95 to 98 range, but never getting over that "hump" of the perfect 100. The shot guns I use are Browning BT-99 Plus, and for doubles, a Citori Plus. The BT-99 has of course a 34 inch barrel, and the Citori has a 30 inch barrel. I use Briley tubes in both guns, the 99 I shoot an improved modified, and in the Citori I use a light full in the top barrel, and a full in the bottom barrel.
Both of these gun/choke combo's seem to work very well, but I just can't get over that hump. The people I shoot with say when watching me, that I get "on the bird" pretty fast, and I have no trouble with follow through, so I guess the thing that is bugging me the most is, when I pattern both of these guns, to my mind, there are a fair amount of "holes" in their patterns. Maybe it is just me, and I am not concentrating enough to get past this stage.
And to address the other question that was put up, I shoot re-loads that I reload my self. I use Red Dot at 19.5 grains, Winchester 209 primers, Winchester wads, and # 8 lead shot. Over the years I have tried different loads, shot sizes, primers, and wads, but I come back to the Red Dot load, because it seems to work better for me.
Maybe I just need to try harder, I don't know! It is frustrating!
One thing I am going to try, tho, factory loaded shells, for at least a couple weeks, just to see if that makes a difference, or not. I will make sure to keep you all up-dated!
And again, thanks for all the great advice!
BigBarn[:o)]
"Respect the land, and it will respect you"0 -
Hello I have shot very little Trap but I do shoot BULLS - EYE pistol let me pose a question to you If you could start over in trap shooting and after 3 times you would be able to break 100 straight with after that never missing a bird again do you think you would enjoy trap shooting? IMHO one of the great things about shooting sports is you can break one bird or shoot one X on a target but the skill is being ALMOST perfect. Think how much more it will mean to you when you do break that first 100 straight. You are doing many things right to break over 90 so just enjoy the sport it WILL HAPPEN 0 -
perry, his problem is sorta like this...he has factory match ammo, a shocky bulleye match gun, acro sights, was taught by team navy to shoot............but his bbl has no lands or grooves left. his bullet is just flying thru space. you cant just keep hoping all 30 will hit the x! he need s a new bbl or a new choke tube that DOESNT have holes in the pattern. as nice as a shocky 45 is...if the bbl is burnt out, the guns scrap.
his loads are perfect. he is perfect. its only one thing left. its the choke.
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quote:Originally posted by BigBarn
OK guys, here is an easy question dealing with trapshooting. I am an avid trap shooter, although not very good at it! And I have been wondering about barrel lengths as compared to shot pattern when shooting trap.
Most trap ranges are set up, when shooting at the 16 yard line, to be hitting the bird at about the 40 yard mark. At that range, my shot pattern seems not to be fully expanded, and has definite "holes" in the pattern. So my question is, "what barrel length, with what choke in it, is the best for a tight consistent pattern at that yardage, on any given day?
is it better to go with a longer barrel, and a less constricted choke, or should it be a shorter barrel, with a more constricted choke?
This has been bugging me for the last five years, and I have not come across anyone that could explain it too me.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the help!
BigBarn[:o)]
"Respect the land, and it will respect you"
It sounds to me as if your shooting (Donuts) or rings around what your aiming at I had the exact same problem with A winchester turkey shell in my mossberg 835 when hunting. A wad grabbing choke tube might be the answer your looking for.
Although I use a browning citori skeet gun and I dont actually compete but I definately blow pop cans out of the sky when my grandad throws em. Good luck with your problem and I hope you solve it.
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a lot of people forget that a shot swarm is 3 dimensional. its like a globe or a beach ball flying thru the air. when pellets hit a test sheet, the holes appear 1 dimensional because the swarm hits the paper at different times. lead pellets hit first, then main body goes thru, then the trailers. the holes may actaully be in the middle of the swarm as well as on the outer fringes. its all the result of a choke working or not working. different wads act differently in gun bbls, but i can assure you a win WAA12 wad is just about pure perfection across the board. i say its a defective choke. i say buy 3 or 4 chokes, and change them out until you find one that doesnt have holes in it. heck, how do you know the choke threads werent installed crooked? bbl may be straight, but the choke may be aiming left or right!
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0
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