Swiss 10.4 x 38 Rimfire Ammo
I don't know much about the Swiss Vetterli's, but I believe that both rifle and ammo was obsolete by around 1890.
In a recent conversation with an old rifle buff he indicated that the rimfire rounds were commercially loaded into the early 1940's as the rifle's were popular here in the US as economical hunting rifles. Maybe that explains why you still see a lot of them at gun shows.
However, my questions are:
1.) Did the Swiss continue to load ammo after they dropped the rifle and cartridge, and if so how far into the 20th Century did they do that.
2.) What US companies made the cartridge?
3.) Were the cartridges that were made in the 20th Century blackpowder or smokeless?
Again, from that conversation I guess there are conversions that can be done to change the rifles over to centerfire, and make cases from 348 Win. brass, but I'm not sure what would be done about the bullet and my friend seemed to be stumped there ... said he thought they used 44 mag bullets, but I don't think the diameter would be correct and I suspect that accuracy wouldn't be all that good. Of course I guess someone could have a custom mold made up from a barrel slug.
Curosity on my part and any info. that you can give me is sincerely appreciated.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
In a recent conversation with an old rifle buff he indicated that the rimfire rounds were commercially loaded into the early 1940's as the rifle's were popular here in the US as economical hunting rifles. Maybe that explains why you still see a lot of them at gun shows.
However, my questions are:
1.) Did the Swiss continue to load ammo after they dropped the rifle and cartridge, and if so how far into the 20th Century did they do that.
2.) What US companies made the cartridge?
3.) Were the cartridges that were made in the 20th Century blackpowder or smokeless?
Again, from that conversation I guess there are conversions that can be done to change the rifles over to centerfire, and make cases from 348 Win. brass, but I'm not sure what would be done about the bullet and my friend seemed to be stumped there ... said he thought they used 44 mag bullets, but I don't think the diameter would be correct and I suspect that accuracy wouldn't be all that good. Of course I guess someone could have a custom mold made up from a barrel slug.
Curosity on my part and any info. that you can give me is sincerely appreciated.
If you only have time to do two things so-so, or one thing well ... do the one thing!
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Hi Contender Man,
I have limited information about your questions that comes from Cartridges of the World, 10th Edition, by Frank Barnes.
This is a quote from his book:
"The Swiss cartrdige was adopted in 1869 for use in teh Vetterli turn-bolt rifle. The official military round is rimfire, but a centerfire version was also loaded in Europe. The cartridge and rifle were discontinued in 1889.
The 10.4mm, or 41 Swisss, cartridge is quite well know in the United States, and most American Companies loaded it until about 1942. Thousands of surplus Swiss Vetterli rifles have been sold in this country, and a surprising number have been used for hunting deer. For a time, there was a good supply of both rifles and cartridges in dealers' stock. American ammunition was loaded with smokeless powder. The 41 Swiss would be a barely adequate short-range cartridge for deer-class animals. The rimfire military version cannot be reloaded. This cartridge is unusual in that it is one of the few rimfire military rounds."
Regards,
Heavyiron
"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix0 -
I don't know about the Swiss, but I know Rem-UMC made them in the US. So far as bullets a .429" bullet is fine, but the original was heel based, meaning it is hard to seat the .429" bullet in the properly sized case. I went in with some other guys and did a group mould buy and a custom mould. But the pistol bullets will work, you may have to trim the bases a bit to get them to seat.
With loads, some were black powder, some were smokeless, and some were, believe it or not, somethign called semi-smokeless.
"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf0 -
Contender, Remington-UMC and Winchester both loaded them up until WW2. Without consulting my references, I'm reasonably sure UMC, USCCo, Dominion and Peters also produced this round. Over the past 3 - 5 years, the supply of original ammo hit the wall and it is selling for over $5 / round these days.
At least the later Remington rounds were loaded with Smokeless / NC priming (I remember this from boxes which passed through my hands). I would expect the later Winchester rounds were as well. UMC are most likely BP / corrosive. The other three, like Rem & Win, will depend on the vintage.
I don't know when the Swiss stopped loading it, but it was well into the 20th Century (although before WW2). Don't forget that as each generation of Swiss military equipment evolved, the older one was still what equipped the elements of the population who had trained with it. Heck, I bet there are still veterans with 7.5x55 bolt actions in their closets.
Bullet diameter on the Swiss is .420" nominal according to my cartridge collecting references (which are not SAAMI by any means). I don't think .429 - .431" bullets would be a good choice.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
I have heard of bores as small as .422, I had one that went .436 I used a Lee 310 grain 44 mag bullet as cast, not sized down, they actually measured about .432. Out of soft lead, I got some really nice groups. Out of harder alloy the bullets wouldn't obturate, and it stripped the rifling off.
My border collie is smarter than your honor student.0 -
HELLO, THERE IS AN ORIGINAL STRING WRAPPED PACKET OF SWISS DATED 14-3-91 OR TO US MARCH 14 1891 ON GUNBROKER COLLECTABLE AMMO NOW.
Old Ammo, have lots always looking for more. Questions email leather325@aol.com0 -
Regarding small diameter of bullets, remember, orginal loads were also paper patched.
"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf0
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