reloading 38 supers
I had a Colt 1911 in 38 super converted to 38 special and sold it a while back. Not one of my best moves. Now I want another for bullseye but they sure got pricey. I'm tempted to get a Hammerli or Walther 32S&W for those prices. Anyway, I cant find anyone that knows if the 38 super can be loaded with the 158 gr WC lead bullet. I suspect the casing is too short. If thats the case then how about a SWC lead bullet? I cant figure out why no one seems to use the 38 super for centerfire matches. Other than the 45ACP all you seem to see are S&W 52's or Walther/Hammerli shooting 32's. Anyone know if the 38 super will make a decent low powered bullseye pistol?
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IF YOU GET A BARREL THAT HEADSPACES ON THE CARTIDGE MOUTH (AS OPPOSED TO THE SKIMPY SEMI RIM)AND TRICK THE GUN OUT LIKE A GOLD CUP YOU WILL GET SIMILAR RESULTS. LYMAN HAS A 150 GN. SWC THAT WORKS WELL IN THE SUPER. 0 -
1911 converted to 38 spl.?.... I would have paid just to see it.
Why don't we see 38 super more at centerfire matches ?
Probably because you use what has worked, is familiar, and has a track record to look at. I don't know why 38 super isn't used more.
Anyway, the load/gun combination is the easy part. I now have a gun or two that are a bit better than I am capable of. I don't need to look for anything else.
If we do not hang together,
We will most certainly hang separately.0 -
To begin with, if you are not using a ramped barrel, then don't even go any farther. if you are I made one once and I used 147 gr 9mm lswc and it worked well
Down Zero0 -
Hello a 38 super will work it is just a matter of working up loads As far as a 38 special on a 1911 Giles, Clark, Shockey, and others made many of these conversions allong with Fort Benning and the 38 AMU "rimless 38 special" IMHO they are a MOOT point as a wadgun the 45 with light loads with slide mounted red dot works just as good if not better than a 38 special or 38 super on a 1911 frame The reason a 38 recoil feels lighter is the longer barrel time but this has a down side as you need better follow thru and the 38 does not shoot as well at 50 yards in the wind "WHAT WIND at Camp Perry" Remember the recoil impulse is what works the slide and the 38 slide weight is the same or slightly heavier then a 45.The other point it is cheaper to have one gun .It is eaiser to learn to shoot one gun and you only have to work up and reload one load . If you want to see a picture of a Giles 38 super converted to 38 specia send me your email address It is not that hard you open up the slide face and rechamber the 38 super barrel BUT you need 38 gold cup magazines and they go for big bucks. "PRAISE THE HARDBALL GUN" 0 -
I see 38 supers at matches ,I think the main issue at not shooting them is brass is not as readily available as .45 acp{yes you can get it of course ,but it is pricey} ,in addition it is not considered as good as a defense weapon ,since most guys shoot what they carry ,and it is ussually in a different class
It is hard to beat the accuracy and quick timing of a proper set up 1911 .38 super ,some of them have a trigger pull as low as 1.5#'s
It is highly underestimated in my opinion
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It has been a while since I shot a "1911/Gold Cup" with .38 special mid-range wadcutters. They worked fine, but I preferred my S&W model 52. Of course, being a 1911 kind of guy my heart is with the Browning creation.
I have built a few 1911 .38 Special mid-range wadcutter pistols for bulls-eye competition, and they can be very reliable and accurate, but as "perryshooter" pointed out it is hard to obtain the right magazines. I have one magazine left in my inventory, which I've been hoarding for the next conversion job I do. I also like to use the SVI-Infinity "interchangeable breechface" slides, as I can modify a breechface to accomodate and extract the .38 Special, and still go back to the original caliber by replacing the breechface, the barrel and the magazines, for multiple caliber 1911's.
One thing to consider when doing these conversions is that to do it properly you must stick to "real" dimensions, and "jack-rigging" is not advised. You should not re-chamber a .38 Super or 9mm barrel to shoot .38 Special, as you will have different bullets diameters and pressures, and of course bullet distortion to consider. 9mm barrels are made for .355 diameter bullets, and .38 Super barrels are made also for .355 diameter, with a few made also in .356 diameter. All .38 Special barrels are made for .357 diameter bullets, and most "lead" bullets are usually sized at .358 diameter. So it is especially important that the "pistolsmith" doing the conversion uses the right bore diameter barrel. This is usually not a problem as there are enough barrel manufacturers that will fabricate the right barrel for gunsmith installation.
So frankly all you need is the right barrel and the right magazines, and of course the pistolsmith willing and able to do the job, and you got yourself a great shooting, accurate gun. It is too bad that Colt quit making the Gold Cup "mid-range .38 Special" guns, even though they were getting their "arses" kicked all over by the S&W mod. 52's
Of course, if what you want is a good shooting accurate .38 Super, every 1911 manufacturer offers them. And, for accurate loads, there are a few IPSC shooters here that use that caliber for competition and can help you with some loads.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)0 -
Hello Rad Cat The reason that colt got their ARS kicked is they tried to make a straight blowback in the 38 mid range Gold Cup at least they got the name right MID RANGE as they wouldn't hold a candle to a S & W 52 at 50 yards The Giles conversion I have will shoot less then 2 inch at 50 yards and it has 38 super barrel I never slugged the bore but are you sure they are not .357 ? I use 158 grain flush mounted wad cutters. Maybe Giles honed the barrel. 0 -
Well this has been an interesting discussion. I started asking about using the 38 super for bullseye at the NRA sectionals in Troy, NY this year and most comments were "why bother, concentrate on the 45 and you'll do just as well". I have two nice Springfield Armory 45's with slide mounted Ultra Dots and a fair amount of other goodies on them. Either is capable of drilling the 10 ring out of a target if I could get it to go off when its pointing at the 10 ring. Humbling experience that 45 is. Then I looked at the guy next to me with the Hammerli SP20 and I thought "yea, that would be nice" and here's where I ended up. The guy shooting on the other side of me was using that 1911 in 38 Special that I sold him. If he were a good friend wouldnt you think he would feel bad and give it back? That gun was part of a matched set of 1911s set up by a gunsmith in Conn. named Dinan. I'm told he passed on a few years ago. There are ways to modify the 38 super barrel to convert it to 38 special but we can find no evidence of sleeves silver soldered in or different bores welded in place so we assume a 38 special barrel was bought and fitted. The gun has now had an Ultra Dot added and really shoots great. Wouldnt you think he'd offer it back? Now that I've got some input and I've had a chance to think about it I guess I have to ask myself if the 38 super is really worth it. Maybe I'll just start saving for the Hammerli and practice more with the 45s. Thanks for all the great feedback. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by perry shooter
Hello Rad Cat The reason that colt got their ARS kicked is they tried to make a straight blowback in the 38 mid range Gold Cup at least they got the name right MID RANGE as they wouldn't hold a candle to a S & W 52 at 50 yards The Giles conversion I have will shoot less then 2 inch at 50 yards and it has 38 super barrel I never slugged the bore but are you sure they are not .357 ? I use 158 grain flush mounted wad cutters. Maybe Giles honed the barrel.
Many of the barrels available to gunsmiths for custom installations by various manufacturers (Bar-Sto, Schuemann, Clark, Nowlin, etc.) usually come "short chambered" and unmarked other than the bore diameter. Schuemann for instance marks the bore diameter, be it .355, .356, .400, .450, etc. rather than the reamed "finished" caliber such as 9mm., 38 Super, 9X21, 40 S&W, 10mm, etc. If you ask for a "drop fit" barrel he may mark it otherwise. Others like Clark or Nowlin will mark the caliber designation even if it is short-chambered and in need of reaming.
.38 Super barrels on the other hand have allways been the exception. It was understood that .38 Super barrels were to be bored at .356, and you were supposed to use bullets sized at .356, making them different than specifications for 9mm. With the 9mm of course you have that "one thousandth of an inch" smaller diameter in bore and bullet size. Being that "one thousandth" (.001" or 1/1000") is not that much, many will use the .355 bore diameter and bullet sizes for the .38 Super, interchangeably with the .356 bores and bullet sizes reliably and with no problems. Unless you are a purists, and ballistics and pressures won't be of concern.
On the other hand if you use a barrel marked ".38 Super" you will do well to ascertain that it is indeed bored for .356, before you use that barrel for a .38 Special conversion, as the "one thousandth" difference in size between the .357 bore and .356 bore will be fine.
So you indeed "can" convert .38 Super barrels to .38 Special barrels provided they are truly bored at .356 and not less. Even though most lead wadcutter shaped bullets in 38 Special are sized to .358 you shouldn't experience any problems as these bullets are usually loaded at low pressures. The original barrels were "standard", while now you have the choice of "ramped" barrels for even better feeding with flat face bullets.
A few people have duplicated the .38 Special "midrange wadcutter" loads into the .355 - .356 "sized" bullets and loaded them into the .38 Super cases, with results just as good. They actually work even better because the .38 Super case is "semi-rimmed" as opposed to the "full-rim" of the .38 Special. With the .38 Special "original" magazines you can usually only fit in "five cartridges" total. ( that holds true also for the S&W Mod. 52), but with the .38 Super you can fit a lot more and they feed very well, even with wadcutters.
So, in conclusion, with what we know and can do now, we can get very good results at duplicating or exceeding the potential of the .38 Special with the .38 Super, with few of the draw backs of yester-year. Of course, you will have to load your own ammo.[:D][:D][:D][8D][8D]
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)0
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