ICONOCLAST: 9MM AUPO ammunition???
TEAK,
we have a customer who is a CLASS III DEALER and collector who has requested ammunition and i cannot locate it anywere.
he is looking for 9MM AUPO FIOCCHI "SEMI-CASELESS" ammunition for a BENELLI CB-M2 made in ITALY in the late 1980`s.
i am unfamiler with the gun, or the ammunition in question...
i could only find a brief description of the gun, and only a few sentences on the ammunition...
i called my contact at FIOCCHI (north america) and hes never heard of the ammo...
i called BENELLI and they had no information about the gun...
the customer wants a few hundred rounds so he can test fire the gun for a GUN DIGEST article and book he is working on....
all my scources came up empty, and had never heard of these items...
maybe you or MARK CHRISTIAN can offer some assistance???
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
we have a customer who is a CLASS III DEALER and collector who has requested ammunition and i cannot locate it anywere.
he is looking for 9MM AUPO FIOCCHI "SEMI-CASELESS" ammunition for a BENELLI CB-M2 made in ITALY in the late 1980`s.
i am unfamiler with the gun, or the ammunition in question...
i could only find a brief description of the gun, and only a few sentences on the ammunition...
i called my contact at FIOCCHI (north america) and hes never heard of the ammo...
i called BENELLI and they had no information about the gun...
the customer wants a few hundred rounds so he can test fire the gun for a GUN DIGEST article and book he is working on....
all my scources came up empty, and had never heard of these items...
maybe you or MARK CHRISTIAN can offer some assistance???
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.
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Mike, your dealer buddy better have some real deep pockets! These suckers are hard to find; I have a few of them and I get $30 / round. This is a real strange puppy (I can send you a photo if you send me an eml address - I'm not set up to post photos with the bleeping ISP I have at this time). Basically think of a truncated cone 9x19 projectile with extended body, solid nose. At the bottom of the body, the edge is rolled over to the inner side to provide a lip to extract an unfired round. Otherwise, the propellant is in the base of the projectile; no case per se, just a skirt in which the propellant (salmon colored) is located. I know nothing about the firearm, but would presume it is an electronic / electric ignited design.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
This is the kind of thing that fascinates me especially since none of the manufacturers can give any information. Kinda makes you wonder about how well trained some of the reps are...
I e-mailed Iconoclast regarding a photo and he very kindly supplied us with one for posting. Without further delay, here it is:
Thank you Iconoclast!
Best.0 -
NN - this was purely an experimental concept / design. I wouldn't be too hard on the factory reps; likely most of them never heard of it. I don't know what problems Benelli / Fiocchi encountered, but so far the history of caseless and expellable ammunition has been less than stellar. The only type which made it to market was the German / Austrian Voere about 25 years back and it is almost impossible to obtain the ammo today even though they still highlight it on their web site.
Thank *you* for posting the photo, amigo!
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)0 -
my references indicate that the design was shopped around to LEO and MIL agencies in the early 1980`s, but had no takers. it was accepted into military or police trials in at least 5 countries, but never adopted...
the one example i have been sent a photo of kinda of looks like the old VOLCANIC system circa 1850...
"...in effect, it was a one-piece projectile consisting of a bullet and a cartridge case without a base. propellant was packed into the open end and seated in place, while a circumferential primer (???) ran around the propellant inside the case wall. the rounds were fed from a magazine in the normal way and the SMG itself was a simple blowback weapon, its only novelty being a hammer firing system wich was automaticly operated as the bolt closed. the bolt had a cylindrical nose wich fitted neatly into the base of the cartridge and it also had seals, rather like piston rings, around its head.
as the bolt went foreward it pushed a cartridge from the magazine, inserted its head into the base and rammed the round into the chamber. as the bolt closed, so the ringed portion fitted closely inside the chamber mouth, the round being held some distance inside the chamber. the hammer was then impelled on to a side mounted firing pin (??? VOLCANO type) wich struck through a hole in the top of the chamber and this impacted the inside priming (NEEDLE GUN stlye???) to fire the propellant. the resulting explosion blew the projectile off the face of the bolt and up the bore, the soft metal of the "case" engaging in the rifling and imparting spin..."
i think that doing away with the extraction and ejection phase of the cycle would speed up the rate of fire...
i am not sure if they were able avoid the problems that were inherent in the H&K G11 (C. 1978) and its caseless ammo...
by the way, his gun has SER#OOOO9...
i guess we learn something new every day...
IAN HOGG seemed to think it was a design that might be used again somewere down the road...
i will keep you informed if i locate a scource for ammo, and try to set a few aside for the interested collectors.
thanx for assisting.
best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
contact me at the shop at waltsgun@aol.com best regards, mike.0
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