target 22
been considering a beretta 89 gold standard or 87 target.....how would either compare to hi standard trophy,s&w 41, cz kadet, buckmark target or others....prefer steel ....never owned a dbl action 22 auto ???? appreciate some advice on buying a ++ quality instead of my closet full of usual mainline 22's.....thanks
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hey fellas,
looking for a good accurate .22 semi auto pistol.
any good ones out there and how much will i pay for one
anyone out there able to help0 -
I am really partial to the S&W 41. I like the feel of it overall.
The most accurate revolver I have fired is the Freedom Arms 252, with the right ammo, this gun will shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards.
The most accurate semi-auto I have fired is a Marvel .22 conversion
on a Springfield Armory frame. Again under 1/2" at 50 yards.
Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Liberals....0 -
If you want absolute, TOP of the line, I think the Berettas are a little behind the curve, as are all of the other ones you have mentioned.
For top of the line stuff, expect to pay (new) $1000+. My personal favorite is the Pardini SP. Other good ones are:
Feinwerkbau AW93
Hammerli SP20
Matchguns MG-2
Morini CM22
Walther GSP
Hammerli 208
Hammerli 280
Walther KSP200 (cleaned up Izh-35 with better finish and grips)
For the budget conscious who doesn't mind a rougher fit and finish:
Baikal Izh-35
Sure, the oldtimers on here will say, "My Hi-standard/Ruger Mk II/Woodsman/Glorified Slingshot will shoot the nuts off a flea at 100 yards!" But last time I checked, none of these have been winning many Olympic or World Cup matches lately.
Granted, some of the guns you mentioned can be as accurate (or almost as accurate) as the ones I mentioned, so what's the difference? Mainly adjustability. With a top notch gun, you can often adjust the trigger for length of pull, first stage weight, second stage weight, and angle of the pad. The grips generally conform to the human hand better and have adjustable palm shelfs; some are adjustable for rake. Front sights are generally adjustable for width of blade. Rear sights are adjustable for windage, elevation, and sometimes width, depth, and shape of notch. The axis of the bore is usually lower, which will give you less perceived felt recoil and muzzle rise, which is helpful for quicker follow up shots.
It all depends on what you're interested in and how much you're willing to spend. If you're happy with something that feels like a 1911 and you don't care about adjustability of anything, the Marvel conversions are phenomenally accurate and reasonably priced if you already have a 1911. But if you want the absolute top of the line, check out some of the ones I listed above.0 -
I'd been shooting a Mark II since 93 and bought the S. & W. 41 4 years ago. It shoots better for me but then it might just be me? Been looking for a Smith Mod. 17. $400 or more an GB. so I'm trying to save up. 0 -
bar none, a pre 64 hi standard tournament, trophy, or this citation 102 series. dont waste time. get one and start winning, grow old, and get your money back and then some when you sell it. bring this gun to the line and all the expert oldtimers will tip their hat to you and know you are serious. matter of fact, they might even drop a shot worrying about you beating them! btw...this gun pictured is 47 years old. they were built to shoot and last a lifetime x2. button swaged rifling is hard to beat. btw, the only reason euro guns are winning olympics is because of marketing. was a time when usa had the market, but lost it not because of quality, but because of corp greed and unions. this type gun in 22 short configuration won usa's ONLY gold medal in 1960. so its not like usa was always and forever great at olympic rapid fire shooting, if you can catch my drift. if you were a company, would you dump millions into a sport that no one participated in and did good at? cant blame usa gun companies with that one. they made the gun, we just didnt have anyone who could shoot them. its like having a stock car that has no sponsors. you think that driver is gonna get support if he cant steer it and win? the american 22 market is what all the 22's were made for. 3 gun events and bullseye. and for that sport, hi standard held 90% of the market until the m-41 came along. where were the hammerli's? where was walther? oh thats right...they were rebuilding after we bombed their factories in ww2. [;)] 
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
Top left: Beretta Model 87
Top right: Beretta Model 76T
Middel left: High Standard Sharpshooter
Middel right: High Standard Trophy
Bottom: Smith and Wesson Model 41
The Beretta Model 87 is too light and the trigger is a DA which was restricted to SA and has far too much over travel to be suitable for serious target shooting. On the other hand, Model 87 grip mimics the Model 92 so if you like the feel of the bigger Beretta you will like the feel of the 87. The 76T is not really a serious target gun, it is simply a Model 70 with an extended barrel, barrel weight and better sights, but it is well balanced and has a very nice trigger. Neither Beretta allows the option of changing barrel lengths.
The High Standards are in a league of their own and are collectable as well as shootable. The more basic Sharpshooter has the typical good feel of High Standards with the slant grip and even without the adjustable trigger you don't give up all that much since the standard trigger is very good. The Trophy has a higher level of finish and fully adjustable trigger as well as a few other bells and whistles. The S&W has been around for decades and has a wide following of dedicated shooters and like the High Standards, the Model 41 allows for quick and easy barrel changes. None of these pistols is going to be suitable for match shooting but since spasm never said anythig about going to the Olympics, I have no clue where that issue even came from. Oh yes, High Standard has won several Oympic medals (including gold) in the hands of US shooters.
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
So WHEN was the last time a High Standard won a medal at the Olympics? Bet it hasn't happened in the last 30 years. Heck, it might not have happened Bill McMillan won the Gold in Rapid Fire back in 1960...almost half a CENTURY ago!
Going by this same logic, F1 drivers should be driving Cooper-Climaxes that look like this:
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/cooper-climax-t51.htm
So I guess you can say the Hi-Standards WERE once good enough to compete at the International level...or in a less PC way, they're a bunch of has-beens. [}:)]
spasmcreek didn't mention the Olympics, I did because he said he was interested in "++quality". I just suggested a few that are used by the best at the International level.0 -
So lets see some pictures of these fantastic match pistols that you own which put bobski's and my guns to shame...stand by and I'll post a few of my own!
A Benelli MP-90S, there is a coversion for both .22LR and .32 S&W LWC
A Unique DES/69U Standard Match. This is a classic and timeless design which can still compete at a very high level.
Walther GSP...what else can be said about these pistols?
The group plus my S&W Model 41.
Besides your Pardini which of the other pistols you recommended do you actually own and shoot?
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
can anyone tell im pro american and oppose globalization?[:D] i hope our hammerli shooter understood what i was trying to say. more important, i hope the other readers do. another point readers need to understand, the hammerli 208 gun was designed after the model 41. put them side by side and tell me what you see? yep, it was part of the marshall law to help rebuild europe. s&w shared some of their designs to help get them back on their feet. fyi, hi standard built machine guns, 45 bbls, and parts for the war. God bless high standard. i will always be a faithful collector and shooter of this fine american product...made only 10 miles from my childhood home. anyone ever needing any advice, pointers and assists in finding parts for these fine guns...you just call me. it would be an honor to put anyone behind the trigger of one. and again i say...just because a gun goes to the olympics doesnt mean its good shooter. its MARKETING. besides, its the PERSON that wins the medal, not the gun.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
Hello If you go to Camp Perry you will see a cross section of the best NRA. three gun type shooters. I shot a High Standard for years and was LUCKY enough to make the MAYLEIGH cup once with one . With the advent of red dot scopes most High Standards were too barrel heavy and other guns in current production took over I bought a Hammerlie 208s most costly mistake I ever made 22 scores go up but guess what CF and 45 scores go down for a total decline in 2700 score I now shoot a Kart Conversion and IMHO my vote goes for Kart or Marvel conversion unit sorry BOBSKI my HIGH Standards will allways have a warm spot for me."PRAISE THE HARDBALL GUN" 0 -
perry made a very important observation, weight of modern guns are made less to accomodate red dot scopes. putting scopes on old guns made of steel gets heavy. i was taught on old iron sights. iron men, iron sights. today, its all high tech. and high tech is expensive. but nobody says its dependable and reliable for ever. alloy vs steel, which do you think is going to last! so in conclusion, for a person shooting american 22 bullseye targets, the high standard is the way to go. and what perry is saying about those conversions is ...the closer you can duplicate the feel of a 45, the better off you are when it comes to 3 gun event. and a kart on a 45 frame is hard to beat.[;)] hey perry...still got my 38 wadcutter?[:D] 0 -
That is one of the things that I don't like about the current Beretta Model 87; Beretta added a rib with an integral scope base rail onto the pistol with the idea that you'd add a red dot and make the pistol the proper weight, but without the red dot the 87 is simply too light and the balance is all wrong. I have a Simmons red dot for this pistol but I just don't like them and much prefer iron sights. Beretta match target sights are some of the best out there but the company has given in to the demands of the market and moved away from using them...just as bobski has been talking about.
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
I'm not even going to dare to say that a High Standard is comparable to a Pardini or one of the super-tech everything adjustable expensive Euroguns. There are reasons why those are the dominant Olympic guns, and its not just because they are more available in Europe. If you've got the cash and the desire, sure, go for it.
But for $500 (or in some cases, a lot less), you're not going to beat a High Standard, and there are guns out there for that cost in like-new condition. Mine isn't new by any stretch, but I got my 1964 slant grip Supermatic Citation for less than that *with match grips* I've shot the Smith 41, and every Ruger variant, and I wouldnt trade those for my HS, even though the tricked out Ruger or Smith might cost a bit more.
(OK, I might trade my Hi-Standard for one of the super-expensive Euroguns. . . but who wouldn't trade a $1200 gun for a $500 gun?)
Besides being collectible, the High Standard is also super-easy to take down, clean and maintain, which is nice if you are actually going to use the thing! The sights are also easily adjustible without tools (just a dime!). . .another very nice touch.
Getting back to the original question, a few of the .22 conversion units are reportedly very good, but then you are still limited to the grips and (worse) trigger of the original pistol you mount the conversion on.
PS: Mark, I hear that storing high-end European match pistols on top of wrinkly sheets is a good way to increase their accuracy? Is that true? [;)]
Seriously, love the great gun pix, keep them coming!0 -
It has not worked too well for me so I guess I will need to wrinkel the sheets even more for and then hope for higher scores! If someone really wanted a good entry level target gun and did not have much money to spend I would honestly suggest taking a look at the Beretta Model 76T. the pistol is exremely well made and although it lacks features like an adjustable trigger the factory trigger is pretty good and the pistol has a nice feel, decent adjustable sights and is very well balanced. Accuracy is as good or better than a Ruger but it can't compare with a High Standard or an S&W 41.
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian0 -
here are some basics that a true MATCH shooter should look for:
1. barrel change feature. (cool off your bbls in between matches and practice; or, if you dont like the wt, pop on a lighter one.)(did you know the majority of match shooters enjoy longer bbls with longer sight radius's in open air matches where daylight is a factor? the further your front blade is from your rear gives you a less perceived distance on both sides of the front blade, making for more accurate long shots on the 50 yard line.)
2. easy to adjust sights(try doing a dope change in 5 seconds, in between strings during a match w/o fumbling.)
3. grooved or undercut front blade.(cuts glare)
4. sear adjustment. (try getting your gun past the line judges trigger weights on registration day after standing in line for an LTI for an hour.)
5. anti backlash adjustment.(w/o it, the gun will jerk down as the bullet is leaving the bore.)
6. easy mag release and loading.
7. unrestricted chamber for brass to clear during firing.
8. stippled or grooved front and back straps (to keep your hands from slipping)
9. a compensator to keep muzzle jump down.
10. a means to increase or decrease the bbl's weight with external weights.
11. and....a reliable REPUTATION.
12. did i hear someone say HIGH STANDARD has all these features?
happy shooting.[;)]
btw mark...so, when you gonna trade wood grips on that hi std of yours with me? mine are nicer than yours! what a deal![:)]
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.0 -
heres what america offered rapid fire shooters in the 60's. this gun is 42 years old. its chambered in 22 short. oh, you dont want to shoot 22 shorts? high standard made conversion kits where you could change bbl, slide, and mag and viola, you got a whole new 22LR gun for 1/3 the cost of a new whole one. the present day hi std STILL offers this feature. today this gun sells for 1000.00 if youre lucky enough to find one.(hey dave..heres your grips just waiting for you![:D]) 0
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