Pope false muzzle rifle?
Hi Ya'll
I have read that the Pope false muzzle rifle was developed in 1880. There are recovered specimens of civil war period bullets in .57,.54, .52, .48 and .43 calibers that are identified as said rifle. Can anybody confirm the existance of the 1860 - 1865 Pope false muzzle rifle. Thanks for any help.
I have read that the Pope false muzzle rifle was developed in 1880. There are recovered specimens of civil war period bullets in .57,.54, .52, .48 and .43 calibers that are identified as said rifle. Can anybody confirm the existance of the 1860 - 1865 Pope false muzzle rifle. Thanks for any help.
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Don't know about that but I have a Griffin & Howe Mauser Action 30-06 with a H.M.POPE barrel. I do know that he was around in that era but was primarily known for his barrels.
Email mjpetrov@acalaska.net. He may be able to help.0 -
Hello sharps...
Harry Pope's ingenius false muzzle rifles were not around in time for the American Civil War, in fact, he did not start making them until circa the early 1890s.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Thanks Bert
I am a real novice compared to you guys so forgive a stupid question. A false muzzle is detachable piece to the barrel to form the slug with the correct rifling of the gun to provide increased accuracy when fired. Along with a precise length ram rod to place the slug at the optimum distance in relation to the cartridge. Am I basically correct or have missed the mark?0 -
Sharps you've missed it. A false muzzle is used to precisely start a patched ball or paper patched conical bullet into the end of a muzzle loader. It starts out as a short piece cut off the end of a ML barrel which is drilled and pinned to align with the bore of the rifle. The dowel pins are permanently fit in the false muzzle and a slip fit in two holes alongside the bore in the barrel. The rifling is reamed from the false muzzle and there may be a slight taper to the hole to get the bullet started in.
Once the bullet is driven into the barrel, the false muzzle is removed.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sharps
Thanks Bert
I am a real novice compared to you guys so forgive a stupid question. A false muzzle is detachable piece to the barrel to form the slug with the correct rifling of the gun to provide increased accuracy when fired. Along with a precise length ram rod to place the slug at the optimum distance in relation to the cartridge. Am I basically correct or have missed the mark?
Hello sharps...
Yes, you are correct (contrary to what v35 stated. Harry Pope's false muzzle rifles were designed so that a .32 caliber (or .33 caliber) bullet could be pushed a very specific distance down the bore, and a 32-40 powder charged case was then loaded into the breech behind the bullet. The rifles that employed this system were specially made "Schuetzen" rifles, and are most commonly found on Winchester Model 1885 high-wall frames. Harry Pope prefer the Winchester Model 1885 high-wall frame, and made his own barrels for them.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Hello It is"NOT" a sharps rifle but in the new "MAN AT ARMS " it shows a rifle with a false muzzle made by Hilliards and it does date from 1860's so it looks like many people used this not just Pope. 0 -
False Muzzles date to at least 1840 and maybe before. Harry Pope, as great as he was, did not invent the false muzzle. 0 -
Bert may be talking about Popes' scheme of muzzle loading a loose ball in Pope barrelled breechloaders but the false muzzle was and is used on muzzle loaders in the manner I described. In early breechloading matches, loose bullets were started from the rear to a precise depth into the chamber followed by a cartridge case full of powder.
Common calibers for this shooting were, I believe, 32-40 and 38-55.0 -
OK... there seems to be some confusion about what type of false muzzle system is being discussed.
First, I do understand that there were/are several other types of false muzzles, and that some of them were around for several decades before Harry Pope began making his own, but I believe that the orignal question from "sharps" was asking about the "Pope" false muzzle, and then he followed it up with a question that perfectly describes the system that Harry Pope specifically designed and used on the "Schuetzen" style Winchester and Stevens rifles that he made those very special barrels for.
Second, while some match shooters of that era did start & seat bullets into the bore from the breech end, Pope's system did not. He created a unique false muzzle device that allows a bullet (not a "ball") to be started and seated into the bore from the muzzle end of the barrel. The rod was precisely made in both length and shape to allow positioning of the bullet in the bore at an optimum distance from the cartridge case. Over the past 25 years, I have seen at least a dozen of these special rifles (Gary Quinlan has a superb collection of them), and very recently, I handled a George Schoyen marked high-wall with a Pope false muzzle that was being sold at one of Little John Gangel's upcoming auctions. The vast majority of them are either 32-40 or Pope's modified 33-40.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0 -
Bert,
Right now, I own 4 Popes. Over the years, I bought and sold 20. Pope's main concern was to ensure the bullet had a perfect base. By loading the bullet from a false muzzle (with special tool to ensure it was concentric to the bore) the displaced lead was forced to the front rather than the rear of the bullet. Pope's false muzzles were rifled and numbered to the barrel. I am stuck in a blizzard in Iowa at the moment on the way to the KC show. If I ever get back home, I'll post some photos. BTW, Schoyen, Peterson, Zischang, etc all made breech loading barrels with false muzzles.0 -
quote:Originally posted by joel_black
Bert,
Right now, I own 4 Popes. Over the years, I bought and sold 20. Pope's main concern was to ensure the bullet had a perfect base. By loading the bullet from a false muzzle (with special tool to ensure it was concentric to the bore) the displaced lead was forced to the front rather than the rear of the bullet. Pope's false muzzles were rifled and numbered to the barrel. I am stuck in a blizzard in Iowa at the moment on the way to the KC show. If I ever get back home, I'll post some photos. BTW, Schoyen, Peterson, Zischang, etc all made breech loading barrels with false muzzles.
Joel... please get in touch with me at Win1885@msn.com at your convienence. Hope the snow lets up and you make it to the show safely... we are supposed to get some of the white stuff real soon out here in western WA.
Bert H.
Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!0
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