Ammo sales to CA : recent law
I just read in the American Hunter that , if I understand correctly, prohibits me selling collector type or even normal small quantities of ammo to CA. Confirm? Effective when?
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Correct.
Has to go to an FFL.
Starts in Feb, 2011.
Oops, Thanks for the correction MC.
But please give us your slant on the handgunpart.
I have read that any ammo that has ever been chambered in a handgun will be covered.
Any thoughts on if that is accurate??
CP0 -
Actually the law does not come into effect until Feb., 2011 and applies only to handgun ammunition. You still have plenty of time (14 months) to complete any transaction you have in the works. 0 -
If we are talking about AB 962, it will go into effect Feb 1 2011, not Feb 2010. It applies to handgun ammunition only, if I read the bill correctly. 0 -
Out of curiosity, what if your rifle is chambered for:
.22 long rifle
9mm luger
.357 magnum
.44 magnum, etc?
The "ever chambered in a handgun" thing (if true) is a killer.
Pretty much EVERY rifle round has been chambered in "a" handgun at some point and this fact can't be lost to the creators of that idiotic law.
EG: .30 carbine, .223 (5.56x45), 7.62x39 all have mass production guns, and there are any number of others that have barrels available for the Contender pistol for example.
Ouch. . .
Edit: Oh no. . .didn't mean to hijack this thread with the in-joke "pistol". While I actually did put 40 rounds downrange with a Mosin rifle on Sunday, the image above is a clever photoshop.
As a matter of historical record, cut down Mosin-rifles do exist, and they were called an "obrez" in Russian. Here is a modern legal GCA-registered recreation of one being fired:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNFsUvh078I
The point is, can you imagine the State of CA banning non-FFL sanctioned "importation" of 7.62x54R "pistol" ammo because some wise-acre cut down their Mosin rifle?
.22 magnum pistol:
30/30 "pistol" (From recent movie "Zombieland")
Kalashnikov 7.62x39 pistol:
.45/70 "pistol" (and I use the term loosely!):
.50 BMG pistol (I don't think this was ever a production gun, but as I understand it, 50BMG is ALREADY banned in CA, anyway, right?)
By the way, they have an even MORE egregious ammunition restriction in MA. In Massachusetts, "importation" of ALL ammo components into the State by non-licensed importers is banned. IIRC, the license in question is a special State license, NOT just a State issued LTC or even FFL license.0 -
I am real new to this forum and see something about a new ammo law hitting us in Calif. What will this damn thing do to us that live here? I can't even guess as to what this is all about. Thanks for any information on it.[:)] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
Ouch. . .
You must have a pair that hangs clear down to your knees to shoot that thing Beaner. They need guys like you in Afganistan, chasing down them ragheads.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
Out of curiosity, what if your rifle is chambered for:
.22 long rifle
9mm luger
.357 magnum
.44 magnum, etc?
The "ever chambered in a handgun" thing (if true) is a killer.
Pretty much EVERY rifle round has been chambered in "a" handgun at some point and this fact can't be lost to the creators of that idiotic law.
EG: .30 carbine, .223 (5.56x45), 7.62x39 all have mass production guns, and there are any number of others that have barrels available for the Contender pistol for example.
Ouch. . .
.45/70 "pistol" (and I use the term loosely!):
.50 BMG pistol (I don't think this was ever a production gun, but as I understand it, 50BMG is ALREADY banned in CA, anyway, right?)
[/purple]
For now the terminology would restrict what is commonly known as handgun ammo, including 22 rimfire. The Encore and Contender and all sorts of "cross-over stuff" is in theory left alone. So my 375 H & H Encore and my 350 Rem Mag and 8mm Mauser, 260 Rem, etc handguns are fine.
My guess is the next "must be banned" is "assault weapon ammo" which they'll define as 223, 7.62X39 and 308 - maybe 6.8 Remington & 5.45 thrown in for good measure.
BTW, 50 BMG ammo is not banned in CA - only 50 BMG chambered rifles. If you want to buy an M2 in 50 BMG, no problem because the M2 isn't a rifle according to CA law - it's not a shoulder fired weapon. I think a 50 BMG handgun is banned as a destructive device though, due to bore diameter.
And a 45/70 pistol - at least with standard factory loads - is a ice creamcat. Reloading can get you a 300 grain JHP @ 2,100 fps from a 14" bbl and that is a handful though.0 -
quote:Originally posted by A1BigTuna
I am real new to this forum and see something about a new ammo law hitting us in Calif. What will this damn thing do to us that live here? I can't even guess as to what this is all about. Thanks for any information on it.[:)]
Join Calguns and help us fight it!0 -
Here is the exact definition of "handgun ammo" per the law in question from the California penal code:
quote: http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12323.html
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
So based on this definition, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R(!), 30/30, 45/70, .50 BMG and the like should be excluded, because my cuckoo examples above notwithstanding, they are not "principally" for use in pistols.
I think a reasonable read of this rule *could* apply to .22LR ammo as well, and it probably "should" apply to any .22LR labelled as match pistol ammo, for example.
In case anyone cares how CA defines handguns, the rule is here:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/appndxa/penalco/penco12001.htm
"Antique" ammo is exempted also:
quote: * (b) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323, but excluding ammunition designed and intended to be used in an "antique firearm" as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code. Handgun ammunition does not include blanks.
Here is the relevant Federal code on antiques:
quote:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/921.html
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
I'll leave this up to the legal experts, but my read on this is that if the ammo is designed for an antique gun, it isn't covered by this law. Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but .45 Long Colt was chambered in pre-1898 guns. Therefore, I would argue that .45LC rounds may be "intended" to be used in antique guns, and therefore this may create a loophole in the new CA rule ONLY for .45LC ammo.
There may be other more obscure calibers where this applies too, though clearly it does NOT apply to .38 spl, .357 magnum, 40SW, 9mm luger, 45 ACP, or any of the other common handgun rounds.
As to the rest of this law, its just a disaster.
Not only must all handgun ammo must be sold in a face to face transaction, but "Ammo" is also defined very loosely to potentially include gun components generally NOT considered to be ammo (like magazines and speedloaders):
quote:For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include blanks.
All ammo sales also now become part of the public record, and require a @#$$ing thumbprint!
quote:(3) Commencing February 1, 2011, a vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information:
* (A) The date of the sale or other transaction.
* (B) The purchaser's or transferee's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued.
* (C) The brand, type, and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise transferred.
* (D) The purchaser's or transferee's signature.
* (E) The name of the salesperson who processed the sale or other transaction.
* (F) The right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee on the above form.
* (G) The purchaser's or transferee's full residential address and telephone number.
* (H) The purchaser's or transferee's date of birth.0 -
Right now there is a law, but until the CA DOJ drafts the regulations it is all guess work as to what criteria they will use to determine exactly what constitutes handgun ammunition. The DOJ is well know for dragging their feet on these sorts of regulations, usually not getting them prepared and available for public scrutiny until a few days before the laws are actually implemented. Many people feel that the DOJ does this specifically to avoid any law suits or court challenges to the new regulations before they can actually be implemented and enforced. Time will tell the story. 0
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