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Winchester 1885 38-55 Part 2

Aragosta
Continued... Original thread reached limit...

Added more detailed pics to original thread...
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=425465

Thx for the insight on the barrel type Cartod. I should have included a pic of the entire barrel top. There is no indication a rear sight was ever mounted to the top of the barrel. The matted finish on the barrel top is undisturbed for the entire length, aside from the 'Manufactured by...' markings. Perhaps the caliber is on the side due to the matted finish. It is on the first section of barrel which is unmatted.
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • GuvamintCheese
    I am not an expert, but you indeed do appear to have a Schuetzen rifle that is missing the fore arm hardware. If you could find the forearm hardware and replace the lever and sights you would have the whole gun.
    According to Campbels book, the first Schuetzen was serial no. 735xx so that is going to put yours a very early 1st generation gun.

    It would be a guess to what it would bring at auction once restored to original and I will let others venture that guess. I do know you will have a pretty penny in restoring it back. You will need someone very experienced to fabricate the forearm if you cannot locate one.

    If you look in my signature line you will see what the forearm hardware should look like, although yours would be a 1st generation palm rest.

    Hey Bert, did they nickle plate the butt back then?
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  • Bert H.
    The "38-55" caliber stamp located on the 9 o'clock barrel flat is normal for a barrel that has been matted on the top three barrel flats.

    I will have to search through my records to see if I have the specific information for the serial number on this rifle, but I can tell you that it was made sometime in the early part of the year 1897.

    The actual barrel length is 30-inches (as measured to the rear edge of the frame ring).

    The '79 you see behind the rear trigger is part of the patent date "Oct 7th '79".

    The inletted missing piece on the bottom of the forend stock was the base for a palm rest.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by cartod
    I am not an expert, but you indeed do appear to have a Schuetzen rifle that is missing the fore arm hardware. If you could find the forearm hardware and replace the lever and sights you would have the whole gun. It would be a guess to what it would bring at auction once restored to original and I will let others venture that guess. I do know you will have a pretty penny in restoring it back. You will need someone very experienced to fabricate the forearm if you cannot locate one. If you look in my signature line you will see what the forearm hardware looks like.


    I do not believe that it was a "Schuetzen Rifle" per se... as I mentioned in my first reply to this topic, it is a "Special Single Shot Rifle", which was a different variant of the Model 1885. The two variants are often confused, but they are not the same (nor did they cost the same when originally sold).
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by cartod
    Hey Bert, did they nickle plate the butt back then?


    Yes... in fact, all of the Swiss style butt plates were nickel plated (as they are made of bronze).
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by cartod
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by cartod
    I am not an expert, but you indeed do appear to have a Schuetzen rifle that is missing the fore arm hardware. If you could find the forearm hardware and replace the lever and sights you would have the whole gun. It would be a guess to what it would bring at auction once restored to original and I will let others venture that guess. I do know you will have a pretty penny in restoring it back. You will need someone very experienced to fabricate the forearm if you cannot locate one. If you look in my signature line you will see what the forearm hardware looks like.


    I do not believe that it was a "Schuetzen Rifle" per se... as I mentioned in my first reply to this topic, it is a "Special Single Shot Rifle", which was a different variant of the Model 1885. The two variants are often confused, but they are not the same (nor did they cost the same when originally sold).Please expand on this Bert because the books I read do not always fill in the blanks. If it has a Schuetzen trigger, and swiss but, a schuetzen palm rest and a #4 barrel, what else is there that would keep it from being classified as a "Schuetzen"?


    The first major difference is the butt plate... true "Schuetzen" rifles were made with a Helm pattern butt plate versus a Swiss style butt plate. The Schuetzen rifle you own has a Helm butt plate on it. Additionally, the vast majority of the "Schuetzen" rifles were made with a Dutch pattern cheek piece versus the longer (and more graceful) Swiss pattern cheek piece found on the "Special Single Shot Rifles"... compare the shape and length of the cheek piece on Aragosta's rifle versus the one on your rifle. The standard trigger on a Special Single Shot Rifle was a single-set, with an optional close-coupled set or a Schuetzen DST, with a spur lever.

    I have seen a fair number of "Special Single Shot Rifles" that were upgraded (special ordered) with items that were standard on the Schuetzen Rifle... why someone would have done so versus simply ordering a Schuetzen Rifle is puzzling, but it happened none-the-less. I just scanned the picture below from the April 1900 Winchester Catalog No. 65 ... it should help illustrate the difference in the two different Target Model rifles that Winchester offered.

    Edit: One other thing I forget to mention... the serial number on Aragosta's rifle is just a bit too early for a "Schuetzen" rifle.

    FUJED-CatalogNo.65April1900.jpg
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  • Aragosta
    You guys are an absolute wealth of knowledge. I am in your debt.

    So what I appear to have is Special Single Shot Rifle with the following options:
    - Schuetzen Double Set Trigger & Spur Trigger Lever (with a butchered lever)
    - Palm Rest (missing... might have it... must search his gear)
    - #4 Barrel with Matting
    - Some special-order butt plate? It appears fancier than the Special Swiss, but differs from the Schuetzen.

    As you guys indicated... the original owner appeared to want a Schuetzen a few years before they actually came out.

    A few final questions, then I will stop bothering you for now...
    - Bert... would the serial # search at the link on your sig be of use? I have a number of firearms to check, thus would join if it is of value.
    - What is the ballpark value of this firearm as is?
    - What is the ballpark value of this firearm restored?
    - When you restore these, are original parts available or do you go with aftermarket or fabricated parts?

    Thanks again guys. I never expected the 'what is this' question to be this complex, nor to receive such complete information. It is greatly appreciated.

    Paul
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by cartod
    Also Bert I noticed some extra checkered areas that dont look right, would this be factory?

    200912280196-1.jpg


    Todd,

    I think you need new glasses my friend. The areas you circled are just dark spots on the wood... not stray checkering[;)].
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by Aragosta
    You guys are an absolute wealth of knowledge. I am in your debt.

    So what I appear to have is Special Single Shot Rifle with the following options:
    - Schuetzen Double Set Trigger & Spur Trigger Lever (with a butchered lever)
    - Palm Rest (missing... might have it... must search his gear)
    - #4 Barrel with Matting
    - Some special-order butt plate? It appears fancier than the Special Swiss, but differs from the Schuetzen.

    As you guys indicated... the original owner appeared to want a Schuetzen a few years before they actually came out.

    A few final questions, then I will stop bothering you for now...
    - Bert... would the serial # search at the link on your sig be of use? I have a number of firearms to check, thus would join if it is of value.
    - What is the ballpark value of this firearm as is?
    - What is the ballpark value of this firearm restored?
    - When you restore these, are original parts available or do you go with aftermarket or fabricated parts?

    Thanks again guys. I never expected the 'what is this' question to be this complex, nor to receive such complete information. It is greatly appreciated.

    Paul


    Hello Paul,

    No need to stop "bothering us"... I rather enjoy it[^].

    In answer to your questions...

    1. Yes, joining the Cody Firearms Musuem would be of great benefit if you have a number of old Winchesters, Marlins, or L.C. Smith shotguns. Thet do not have any information on Remington or any other makes other than what I listed. If you only have a few old Winchesters, you would be better off simply buying the factory letters as you desire. If you decide not to sign up, please let me know, and I will research the serial number on your Special Single Shot Rifle for you.

    2. Without the benefit of verifying that the configuration of the rifle is correct as it exists today through the Cody Fireams Musuem research department, I am hesitant to say what it might be worth. The pictures you posted are not clear enough for me to adeqately judge the overall condition. If you can rehoot the pictures in natural (outdoor) lighting, or in a professional studio, I can give you a very good estimate.

    3. See my previous answer. That said, I would not "restore" that rifle if it letters properly. Replacing the non-factory sights with original (period) sights as listed in the records will not be cheap! Expect to pay somewhere in the $1200 - $1600 range for a nice condition Winchester windgauge globe front sight, and a Mid-range vernier tang sight. Unless you get extremely lucky, I would not expect to find an original palm rest and mounting hardware. If you do find one, expect to pay serious $$$ for it.

    4. There are very very very few "original" parts to be found anywhere for a deluxe Model 1885 rifle... most especially the parts you need. If you could find all of the (original) parts, I would expect that you would need to have at least $3500 in your pocket, possibly a bit more. Reproduction parts are simply that, and they do nothing to help the value, but they will drain your pocketbook more than is warranted. Finding someone who can remake the parts needed is problematic as well, but there are a few people that I trust.
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by cartod
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    Originally posted by cartod
    Also Bert I noticed some extra checkered areas that dont look right, would this be factory?

    200912280196-2.jpg
    Todd,

    I think you need new glasses my friend. The areas you circled are just dark spots on the wood... not stray checkering[;)].
    OK Im not going to call you an old fart, but you need to look a little closer Bert...I lightened it up....trust me on this one![;)]..The top of the stock has either been broken or cut off and checkered, and there is a heart shaped checkering pattern on the right side of the wrist.

    note the top...
    200912280197-1.jpg

    Here is how it should look
    200912280197-1-1.jpg


    Hmmmm... maybe I do need to go get some glasses (and I possibly ressemble the "old Phart" monikor)[:I][:(]

    That spot on the top forward end of the butt stock comb definitely does look like it has been checkered... but why? It most surely is not factory work.
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  • GuvamintCheese
    Maybe the gun was dropped with the lever open, it broke the spur off the lever, gouged the wrist and broke the top off of the stock.????

    ........and broke both of the original sights off???...not to mention the stock is way to shiney...someone has laquered it up or sumptin!
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  • tocamoha
    In the first thread ,the "more pics" post ,pic #2 of the lower tang.you can plainly see an area of the wrist that is checkered on one side but not the other.
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