small carry pistol question
In a small carry pistol does the 380ACP fall much short of the 9MM?
0
-
I say YES! For no other reason than 9mm ammo is less expensive and easier to get ahold of.
Benjie0 -
quote:Originally posted by 5mmgunguy
In a small carry pistol does the 380ACP fall much short of the 9MM?
Depends what you mean by "much short".
The .380 ACP round (also known as "9x17mm short" in Europe) is significantly less powerful than 9x19mm luger/parabellum, if that's what you are asking.
If you are recoil-sensitive, that can be an issue as 9mm luger tends to pack quite a bit of recoil from small "pocket" type guns.
On the other hand, many experts consider .380ACP (also called "9mm short" in Europe) to be marginal or inadequate for self-defense.
.380 ACP guns are in general smaller and lighter than 9mm luger guns. Though some of the smallest 9mm luger guns (Kel Tec PF-9, Kahr, Rohrbaugh, Walther PPS) are still pretty small, none of them are as small and light as the smallest .380s like the Kel-Tec 3AT and its Ruger clone.
Other advantages of 9mm luger include greater availability of ammo, greater variety of ammo available, and lower ammo cost. Having the ability to share ammo with other (non-pocket) guns in 9mm luger may (or may not) also be an advantage.
If you want to know the EXACT ballistic difference, here are a few specs to consider. Note that these are sort of generic; exact figures will depend on gun and load in question, and also note that the 9mm figures are based on a 4" barrelled gun, the real world velocities will be a little bit lower in smaller "pocket" guns:
95 grain 9mm luger: 1345fps, 380 ft-lbs energy
115 grain 9mm luger: 1150fps, 340 ft-lbs energy
124 grain 9mm luger +P: 1180 fps, 380 ft-lbs energy
90 grain .380 ACP: 1000 fps, 200 ft-lbs energy
95 grain .380 ACP: 955 fps, 190 ft-lbs energy.
I just put in the 95 grain 9mm luger to get a sort of "apples to apples" comparison. Iin the real world, virtually nobody uses these lightweight bullets in 9mm luger guns. Still, consider that with similar weight bullets, the 9mm luger puts out nearly 35% more muzzle velocity and double the kinetic energy.
In short, even the WEAKEST 9mm luger loads are still considerably stronger than the most powerful .380 loads. The .380 loads are also handicapped by requiring light-weight bullets that offer poor penetration.
Personally, I'm not that fond of the .380.
Compared to the PPK-style .380s (eg Walther PPK, Bersa Thunder, Sig 232, etc), a .38+P alloy frame snubnose revolver is nearly the same overall weight and size, but more reliable and puts out a more powerful round. Only real-world tradeoff is slightly lower capacity with the revolver, but IMO its worth it.
To me the only real advantage of the .380 is that it fits into some really tiny and lightweight (if not all that reliable) guns. So you can drop something reasonably powerful into your shirt or back pocket, or in other situations where carrying ANY gun concealed could be problematic.0 -
Given just how small & light the 9mm semi autos can be made these days - the Kahr PM9 comes to mind - I think they are a much better choice than any 380. Seecamp & NAA make a fairly small 380, but being all steel they are fairly heavy. 0 -
Regardless of the large power difference, the .380 won't bounce off people. It IS a viable defense cartridge, as are the even smaller calibers. Any gun is better than no gun. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill DeShivs
Regardless of the large power difference, the .380 won't bounce off people. It IS a viable defense cartridge, as are the even smaller calibers. Any gun is better than no gun.
There's always the next step better. 9mm Luger is better than .380acp. But not as good as 45acp. Even the U.S. Govt. advises soldiers to do a "double tap" w/the 9mm.
So evidently that's the answer. Less power, shoot em more times.
You might look at the 9x18 Makarov to "bridge the gap". More powerful than .380. Not as powerful as 9mm Luger.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat
quote:Originally posted by Bill DeShivs
Regardless of the large power difference, the .380 won't bounce off people. It IS a viable defense cartridge, as are the even smaller calibers. Any gun is better than no gun.
There's always the next step better. 9mm Luger is better than .380acp. But not as good as 45acp. Even the U.S. Govt. advises soldiers to do a "double tap" w/the 9mm.
So evidently that's the answer. Less power, shoot em more times.
Actually, .380s CAN bounce off of someone. . .that's been described. . .as can virtually ANY bullet that hits the skull at an acute angle. The smaller the bullet, the more likely this sort of thing is to happen.
I think more relevant, incidents where .380 bullets fail to penetrate someone's thick layered winter clothing have also been described. The combination of a relatively light weight bullet and low velocity aren't ideal for penetration, that's all.
I would never say a .380 is worthless (or volunteer to get shot by one), and in fact, I do occasionally carry one myself. I agree that a .380 is still a lot better than nothing, and its also a good bit better than all of the smaller auto cartridges (eg .22LR, .25ACP, .32ACP, etc).
My point is only that the round is marginal, and that given the size and weight parameters implied by most traditional .380 guns, there are other viable choices that MIGHT be better. For example, the current crop of "micro" 9mms are more or less the same size as the older .380s. Unfortunately, physical/structural design constraints probably mean that you're never going to be able to get a 9mm luger gun in as small a package as something like the Kel-Tec 3At.
In terms of "double taps", extra hits never make things worse, and that goes for .380s, 9mms, 45ACP, .44 magnum, 5.56x45, .308 NATO, .50 BMG, or whatever else you're shooting. Particularly with handguns, NONE of them (not even .45ACP) have magical stopping powers, and you should never assume the game is over with one hit.
But speaking in general, QUALITY of hits are more important than their QUANTITY! You can't assume you're going to be able to get even one hit, let alone multiple hits, and you may have multiple attackers, so it may not be wise to expend all your rounds on one target.
The point is, power does still matter.
The US military didn't choose the 9x19mm because of the ballistic superiority of the round over .45ACP, but instead to comply with NATO standards and to increase capacity.
The fact that .45ACP is probably better than 9mm luger is interesting, but its getting away from the question asking about the distinction between .380 and 9mm luger in a small pistol.0 -
I carry a single stack Kel-Tec 9mm. Take a look before you buy. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 5mmgunguy
In a small carry pistol does the 380ACP fall much short of the 9MM?
Yes,
Have you checked the energy and momentum numbers?
CP0 -
5mmgunguy, As you can see there are many opinions and much quoted data on this topic. I am a retired law enforcement officer and formerly held state certification as a law enforcement firearms instructor. That does not make me an expert but, like others on this forum, I have an opinion. So, the .380 is somewhat less powerful thus less effective for self defense purposes than the 9mm Parabellum. That being said, my personal concealed pistol is a Walther PPK in .380 cal. It is small and reliable. I do not consider myself under gunned with the .380 cal. The bottom line is, Hits Count. 0 -
I trust the .380ACP completely.. but it is as small I as I would go for PD.. And if it wasnt more then good enough, I wouldnt carry it.. It will shoot through seasoned oak 2"x4s" well beyond 25 yards with ball ammo when shot from a 3.5" barrel.. 0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
10 comments