Having a debate over a beer
Having a debate over a beer as to the best 45 ACP defensive load bullet weight for a short barrelled 45. I think 230 gr JHP, my friend thinks the 185 gr JHP. His logic is the barrel is short, you need all the velocity you can get out of a short barrel to make the bullet expand. My logic says the ammo manufacturer knows the 45 ACP goes slow so they design bullets that expand at the low velocities a short barrel 45 would give you.
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Hollow points are a waste of money and time for the 45 ACP round. None of them have enough velocity to expand the bullet... regardless of the bullet weight or the pistol you shoot them out of.
The standard 230-grain ball .45 ACP round is the best defensive load for any handgun that you can shoot a 45 ACP out of (and that is why the U.S. military used them for 70+ years).0 -
Bert H "KNOWS MORE THEN JUST WINCHESTERS" Thanks Bert "PRAISE THE HARD-BALL GUN" I cant speak for Bert But I'll take a beer[;)] Perry Shooter 0 -
With the POSSIBLE exception of a .45 ACP Carbine or SMG, you are not going to see reliable expansion on most of those cartridges- it is just moving too slow. Ummm- Got a St. Pauli Girl back there anywhere? (Clink) 0 -
Not that I load them a lot. So is a 230g xtp load not going to expand either? Granted a 45 round will create massive damage on your target weather a ball round or something else. So is a ball round your best bet period? 0 -
Here is an interesting chart, showing various .45 loads fired through two barrel lengths - standard 1911 and Officer's length. I found this a "few" years back and the tests were done in 1995, IIRC - perhaps there are new loadings that have other results:
.45 ACP AMMUNITION TEST DATA
Government Model:
Brand Velocity Bullet Momentum Expand Factor
Federal 834 230 27.40 .730" 20.00
Remington 869 230 28.55 .715" 20.41
Hornady 857 200 24.48 .551" 13.49
Hornady 926 230 30.43 .721" 21.94
Winchester 828 230 27.21 .683" 18.58
CCI Blazer 965 200 27.57 .587" 16.18
Speer 869 230 28.55 .665" 18.99
COR-BON 958 230 31.48 .718" 22.60
Nat Match 820 230 26.94 .451" 12.15
Handload 910 200 26.00 .451" 11.73
Officer's ACP:
Brand Velocity Bullet Momentum Expand Factor
Federal 835 230 27.44 .743" 20.39
Remington 822 230 27.01 .721" 19.47
Hornady 796 200 22.74 .568" 12.92
Hornady 846 230 27.80 .645" 17.93
Winchester 783 230 25.73 .659" 16.96
CCI Blazer 915 200 26.14 .650" 16.99
Speer 810 230 26.61 .683" 18.17
COR-BON 886 230 29.11 .655" 19.06
Nat Match 784 230 25.76 .451" 11.62
Handload 826 200 23.60 .451" 10.64
This monograph may be reproduced only for non-commercial use without other permission of the author. Reproduction for commercial use only by written permission.
Copyright c 1995 by Les Bengtson0 -
32magnum...so who is right? Bert says HP don't expand...your data would say that 45 ACP does expand. I wonder what the test medium was? 0 -
Expand or not, there is something to be said for a big, slow, heavy bullet for stopping power. A lot of the designer ammo these days is nothing but MARKETING hype, and the bean counters in the MARKETING department trying to justify their overpaid posistions.
Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Experts forum!
Best0 -
I think whether or not a 185 grain bullet will expand is going to be highly dependent on the design of the round in question, barrel length, and where it hits.
Its entirely plausible that the better rounds will consistently open up. For example, Corbon's 185 grain .45ACP +P is supposed to yield 1150fps:
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/45_Auto_185gr_Corbon_Box.html
Also, Corbon makes a 165 grain +P round that yields 1250 fps. 1250 fps is pretty fast. . we're talking 9mm+P velocity, or even, if you prefer, slow 357-type speeds. I think any properly designed bullet going that fast ought to expand, and there is fairly good reason to think that these will in human targets, not just in gelatin:
The question, I think is whether or not the POTENTIAL to expand outweighs the likely better penetration and potentially better gun reliability you'd get with heavier ball ammo.
I'm agnostic here, but my feeling is that in general better penetration trumps expansion.
As a side issue, I think its wrong to assume that ball .45 (or ANY .45) is necessarily going to cause "massive" damage. That depends entirely on where the bullet hits.0 -
A non-lethal shot, one that is on the perhiphery of the FBI human silhouette target for instance, will not cause a hollow-point to expand. So, FMJ or hollow point, it's all the same to me except for one thing, the 'hardball' has a proven record of fail-safe operation in autos.
How many assailants will be crazed under the influence of crystal-meth laced with morphine? I'll wager not too many. But I don't know who will be, and who won't. So..
I'll go with hardball, whereby the exit trauma will cause a vertebra to blow out, or at least, to stymie the central nervous system with a near-spinal through shot.
Now, I have to apologize, as the 'beer' in the title got me to respond..I'm enjoying a few Carlsburg 'Elephant' beers (havn't done this in over three years). Perhaps there wouldn't have been such a gruesome response from me on this most Holy of days had I not been imbibing. Best to all my brother/sister GB'ers, and one with the Holy Birth of Our Saviour!<--My opinion, Good, huh? Thanks, Joe0 -
Ball ammo feeds better with fewer jams. It is very reliable ammo. The Geneva Convention requires ball ammo in military small arms, believing that hollowpoint and soft point ammo is less humane due to its potential for severe tissue damage and massive wounds. If you are going to have to shoot ball ammo, shooting a heavier bullet increases the energy and many feel that the weight of the bullet is more important than its velocity when it comes to stopping power. When I carry a .45, I load a fast 185 grain hollow point. If I were going to use ball ammo, I would go with the 230 grain load. I feel that the 185 grain hollow points expand reliably and make a great defensive load. 0 -
I performed unscientific tests on 45 expansion in 5 gal buckets of wet magazines at 15 ft shot length wise. I used Fed 165 gr self defense ammo and Wolf 230 gr hardball from a Firestorm Compact 45. The hard ball zipped right through making a 1/2" hole while the Fed went in about 10" making a picture perfect mushroomed bullet and blowing a hole as big as a fist in the wet paper while doing it.I don't think pass through bullets are safe for urban or household use.IMHO. The military is required to use hardball by the Geneva Convention, THAT'S why the use them NOT because they are the best load.Ask a cop how they liked the Black Talon ammo.I talked to one from Miami and he said he shot a guy in the chest twice(double tap) with a 40 cal and Black Talons and they made a hole as big as a football. He didn't need the second shot really.The Black Talon was discontinued because the surgeons would get a cut through their rubber glove from the sharp points of the mushroomed bullet and they were afraid of contracting AIDS. Winchester then came out with the SXT which is the same design without the sharp points.My advice is to use what your gun and YOU shoot well and hit what your're aiming at and don't worry about what bullet you use.I know it sounds like I'm contradicting myself but dead men can't tell the difference. It's like if a 243 is as good as an '06 for deer. The deer don't care what blows his heart apart, it's just dead.If you worry about not killing someone with the first shot....Shoot for the forehead, anything should work.I go along with you as the ammo co's know what they're doing.They invest big $$$$$ designing a better product to beat the competition and we win in the end.Heyyyyy, do what I did with the buckets and you and your friend could see for yourselves what's what. Buy a pig and shoot it for tests and then bbq it.You can serve regular and unleaded pulled pork.LOL 0
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