Not to beat a dead horse 9mm defensive ammo choice
I know its been asked, and I can't tell you how many posts have been asking about 9mm defensive ammo choice in the years I've been on this board, but this one asks the same old question at a bit of a different angle so to speak, and I figures why not ask. Worst case is everyone gets a +1 on their post count right?
I typically want a cartridge that would offer 18" or more of penetration in ballistic gel. I'm not a fan of mouse guns, and understand the 9mm isn't the best choice for carry. I'm an avid 10mm shooting nut, and I really don't want to get on the just get a bigger cartridge track. Thats my first answer too. And I don't want to get into the over-penetration argument. Because another thing I want out of a cartridge is something that would be able to penetrate auto glass or thick clothing and still have enough energy to penetrate to a vital organ. Auto glass penetration was never a factor I though about till I read about a little old lady shooting a would be car jacker from her drivers seat thru her windshield.
The average depth of the human torso is 9.4". An arm could obscure a shot to the torso adding an additional 3 to 5" of tissue and possibly bone. The far side skin of a torso can absorb the equivalent of 4" of flesh penetration. And I understand that typically ammo designed to penetrate for this have been proven to over-penetrate and have poor terminal performance, but I'm not looking for that one stop magic bullet.
Anyway I'm looking at three cartridges:
Winchester Ranger 124gr FMJ full power Nato cartridge.
Speer Gold dot 124gr +P
Corbon 115gr DPX +P
Starting with base, the Winchester 124gr FMJ Nato is cheap enough that I could practice with what I carry. It is capable of penetrating 27 inches of ballistic gel, and has a tumble effect after 7 inches which creates a pretty decent wound cavity. It also has the ability to penetrate an auto windshield or thick cloths and still be somewhat effective.
I read a very very long dialog by a county corner over the subject of hundreds and hundreds of bullet wounds (http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm), and the one thing stated was that the speer gold dot rarely failed to expand, even less than the federal hydrashock. Now this is a proven round and bullet design. I can't find information on its penetration, but it does have slightly hotter external ballistics than the 124gr Nato. Its more expensive than the winchester ranger, and its a hollow point design, but it seems maybe a more effective at creating a wound cavity than just the tumbling FMJ bullet.
The next round is the CorBon DPX. I can't find much on its terminal performance as its a pretty new cartridge, but it looks pretty impressive otherwise. It uses a solid copper bullet. This means more weight retention, which in turn means more penetration. And its a hollow point design, almost what I'd call a gross expansion hollowpoint. I can't find anything on whether or not it does what its supposed to in a corpse. But in theory it looks like it should be a good performer. On the downside, its very very expensive, meaning training with it would be limited. In fact its so expensive I could shoot my .50ae desert eagle for the same price.
So there it is guys, my stupid question. There might still be some flesh I kicked on that rotting dead horse corpse, eh.
I typically want a cartridge that would offer 18" or more of penetration in ballistic gel. I'm not a fan of mouse guns, and understand the 9mm isn't the best choice for carry. I'm an avid 10mm shooting nut, and I really don't want to get on the just get a bigger cartridge track. Thats my first answer too. And I don't want to get into the over-penetration argument. Because another thing I want out of a cartridge is something that would be able to penetrate auto glass or thick clothing and still have enough energy to penetrate to a vital organ. Auto glass penetration was never a factor I though about till I read about a little old lady shooting a would be car jacker from her drivers seat thru her windshield.
The average depth of the human torso is 9.4". An arm could obscure a shot to the torso adding an additional 3 to 5" of tissue and possibly bone. The far side skin of a torso can absorb the equivalent of 4" of flesh penetration. And I understand that typically ammo designed to penetrate for this have been proven to over-penetrate and have poor terminal performance, but I'm not looking for that one stop magic bullet.
Anyway I'm looking at three cartridges:
Winchester Ranger 124gr FMJ full power Nato cartridge.
Speer Gold dot 124gr +P
Corbon 115gr DPX +P
Starting with base, the Winchester 124gr FMJ Nato is cheap enough that I could practice with what I carry. It is capable of penetrating 27 inches of ballistic gel, and has a tumble effect after 7 inches which creates a pretty decent wound cavity. It also has the ability to penetrate an auto windshield or thick cloths and still be somewhat effective.
I read a very very long dialog by a county corner over the subject of hundreds and hundreds of bullet wounds (http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm), and the one thing stated was that the speer gold dot rarely failed to expand, even less than the federal hydrashock. Now this is a proven round and bullet design. I can't find information on its penetration, but it does have slightly hotter external ballistics than the 124gr Nato. Its more expensive than the winchester ranger, and its a hollow point design, but it seems maybe a more effective at creating a wound cavity than just the tumbling FMJ bullet.
The next round is the CorBon DPX. I can't find much on its terminal performance as its a pretty new cartridge, but it looks pretty impressive otherwise. It uses a solid copper bullet. This means more weight retention, which in turn means more penetration. And its a hollow point design, almost what I'd call a gross expansion hollowpoint. I can't find anything on whether or not it does what its supposed to in a corpse. But in theory it looks like it should be a good performer. On the downside, its very very expensive, meaning training with it would be limited. In fact its so expensive I could shoot my .50ae desert eagle for the same price.
So there it is guys, my stupid question. There might still be some flesh I kicked on that rotting dead horse corpse, eh.
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I would look at Remington Golden Sabres we done some informal shooting with wet newspaper and the remingtons done good at pentration and mushroomed pretty good also 0 -
Is it possible for you to get a hold of ballistic gel? As penetration depth into that seems to be your main criterion... do some testing of your own? 0 -
You worry too much.
All three are fine.
Pick one and forget about it.
If you place the shot correctly, any of them will work, and if you don't none of them will. That's been MY experience in the morgue, and its probably the single most important "take home" point of the rambling passage you linked to.
Again, I don't lose sleep over this. You've got 15 rounds in the gun. Use them. . .try not to miss.
If you don't think any of them are good enough, I'd suggest switching to a larger CALIBER.
Edit: For what its worth, given the choice above, I'd pick the Speers, mainly because they are not ball ammo, and are less expensive than the CorBon.
Given that my carry gun of choice is a puny .38 special, which is ballistically inferior to EVERY 9mm and has literally 1/3 the capacity to boot, again I *REALLY* don't worry too much about this. Even cheapo Walmart 115 grain Winchester White Box ball 9mm can be plenty lethal, especially with multiple hits.
Again, my take on this is that ANY "personal protection" type +P 9mm ammo from a reputable maker ought to be plenty good enough to do the job if I do my part. Skill of the shooter is more important than subtype of ammo.0 -
9MM best loads are Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Saber... 124 gr +P. 0 -
I agree with beans. Any of the reputable self defense loads should be adequate if you can hit your target.
To me that means: Practice, practice, practice to make sure you can hit your target and to make sure the load you choose works reliably in your firearm.0 -
I am in total agreement with Beany. However, I do have something to add.
All of the rounds are fine, as long as they function 100% in your handgun of choice. They can have the best penetration, expansion, and wound channel, but are not worth a darn if they give you stoppages. You should test all of them for reliability in YOUR gun. Don't accept this or any other forums advise on reliability, as they have not tested the EXACT firearm you are going to be using.
I carry a GLOCK 19 quite a bit...America's top choice in combat tupperware. It has been bragged up to be utterly reliable. I carry the Magtech 115 JHP +P loads, as I have fired over 1000 rounds, and not one stoppage, it is accurate with those loads, and i have access to a continuing supply.
Just some food for thought...don't rely on just terminal performance...does not mean much if you get a click instead of a bang when you need it.
Best0 -
agree with what's already been said, but i'm less inclined to carry the 9mm nato rounds. I bought a case of them to use in my colt AR where the hotter load runs the action better. but i dont shoot alot of it in my handguns. the round is supposedly 10% hotter than commercial +p and too much penetration for my taste.
I have an emp loaded with black ttalon 147gr right now, but will replace it with ranger sxt next shooting session.
my other favorite jhp is starfire, claims to expand better than most others seem reasonable looking at the bullet "leaves".
i think and 9mm that goes bang is potential for carry, but just like smaller calibers, plan/train for multiple shots.
just my 2c0 -
Well for practical matters I would go with the gold dot..
Another round not mentioned is corbon hardball.. alittle cheaper, and if you have a gun that malfs with hollowpoints, It will help correct the problem, while still offering expansion..
Federal also makes a FMJ round with a plastic core..0 -
I personally use CorBon +P 115gr. Here is a great comparison of different ammo and results shot into ballistic gel. Note info about penetration depth, etc...
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm
All of these were shot out of Kel-Tec P11 with a 3 inch barrel. There is also a link at the top for other calibers.0 -
Federal 9BP....been around for years, I have owned several different 9mm over the years and have never had a feed problem with this round,
Low Flash/Recoil.0 -
We're issued the Ranger +P+, and it works (so far) with 100% reliability in my Glock. All three you listed are proven rounds, find a) which one works 100% and b) which one you can find (and afford enough of to shoot 100-200 rounds), and feel confident in the choice. 0
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