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Winchester Serial Number Data, Bert, Pauline, etc.

kimi
For the past year or three, trying to determine when a Winchester rifle was made has not been an easy thing to do in a lot of cases. This has been helped by Bert's contributions that show up in a sticky, but what about all of the other models? Has this type information ever made been made public in a published article as stated it would be here on this forum, or has the subject article been delayed? What about the polishing room records...have they been made public as yet, and if not, when might we expect this sort of supplemental data to hit the street?
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Comments

16 comments

Date Votes
  • p.muerrle
    I don't know about any article that was supposed to be on the forum as I am a new member. I have accumulated tons of data from the factory over the last 20 yrs. I still have not gone through much of it. I just try to answer a question as it comes along with any of the material I have gone through so far.
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by p.muerrle
    I don't know about any article that was supposed to be on the forum as I am a new member. I have accumulated tons of data from the factory over the last 20 yrs. I still have not gone through much of it. I just try to answer a question as it comes along with any of the material I have gone through so far.


    I certainly know what collecting tons of information is like as I have done the exact same thing with genealogy data concerning one surname in particular. And, I do like collecting some books on Winchesters, most especially, if they are the technical type regarding certain models, or like some of Madis' work that covers most every model Winchester made in both large and ready reference type books.

    The "article" that I made reference to was to be published not on the GB Ask the Expert Forum, but elsewhere, and I was of the opinion that David Kennedy was to excecute it, but I am not positive to this end. I do know that Bert has a lot of irons in the fire as to personal projects, and I also know that he has worked diligently toward greatly expanding his knowledge this past three years where the Model 94 is concerned for everyone's benefit, but, offhand, I don't remember if one of his projects is to publish Winchester Serial Number data, along with Polishing Room Record stats.

    Thanks for the response, Pauline. Have you thought seriously about publishing some of the technical information that you have collected over the years?
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  • p.muerrle
    I've put alot of thought into it. I'm not sure if a web site with available data to others writing books or articles, or writing another book myself is the best way to go. I'm thinking the web site as alot of the stuff I have deals with so many different models and areas that I wouldn't know which direction to start in. What do you think? Suggestions are appreciated.
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  • badsbsnf81
    p.muerrle, FWIW, my thought would be to supplement what has been published on specific models. As to where to start, my suggestion would be from oldest to newest models.

    It's good to know that there are folks like you and Bert that either have or have access to a lot of the information.
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by p.muerrle
    I've put alot of thought into it. I'm not sure if a web site with available data to others writing books or articles, or writing another book myself is the best way to go. I'm thinking the web site as alot of the stuff I have deals with so many different models and areas that I wouldn't know which direction to start in. What do you think? Suggestions are appreciated.


    I know the feeling well, and although I've not written any books, I have entertained the idea of compiling the data I do have, and using a variety of available methods to get it to the interested parties.

    My first thought in response to your question to me would be by Model, Sub Topic, then by Timeline, if possible. Does this sound feasible?

    Do you mind if I ask what type of Winchester factory record you used to supply the year of manufacture regarding your recent post to the Model 61?


    EDIT: As to the means for getting the information to the public, a web site or via disk come to mind. Then too, one could post the basic information on a web site, showing model, followed by a brief explanation of sub topics with number of pages thereto and any interested party could place orders directly with you.
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  • p.muerrle
    That is kind of my thought. Don't want to ruffle any feathers but alot of what I have contradicts info that is already out there. As I always tell people, new info becomes available all the time. Writers work with the info that is available when they write their books. It doesn't make their books wrong, they simply work with what they have at the time. Many of these former employees that I have dealt with, whether bench workers or upper management, had never been approached by anyone writing anything. They were thrilled to share info with me as most were lifetime employees. They wanted to see this stuff saved and made good use of.
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  • p.muerrle
    The records I used were included in a file from USRAC. On the cover letter it states it is a 1992 revision of the serial number guide. It is signed by Bruno Pardee Administrator for Product Service Information.
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by p.muerrle
    That is kind of my thought. Don't want to ruffle any feathers but alot of what I have contradicts info that is already out there. As I always tell people, new info becomes available all the time. Writers work with the info that is available when they write their books. It doesn't make their books wrong, they simply work with what they have at the time. Many of these former employees that I have dealt with, whether bench workers or upper management, had never been approached by anyone writing anything. They were thrilled to share info with me as most were lifetime employees. They wanted to see this stuff saved and made good use of.


    I understand this very well, Pauline, and your are wise to take this tact. I have documents galore that disputes some of what researchers have taken for granted as being the gospel, and in some instances entire families are connected to those that are nowhere near related, immediate family wise, that is, and the "lost" families are still "lost".

    Since it has never been my intention to slight anyone at all with my work, I have long since abandoned the idea of "duplication" in any form, unless it is by "official" documents, referenced or pictured. However, since I had to learn the hard way, I do not share what info I do have at this time due to how some people take it, so they will have to wait until I do make this data available in an organized manner. This is where original copies of official documents come in handy, since they cannot be easily disputed, and it allows the interested parties to come to their own conclusions.
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  • p.muerrle
    You hit it right on the head. I agree 100%.
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  • Winchester 1912
    Is there a definitive source to pinpoint the manufacturing dates of my Model 12s, and my Model 50? On the 12s, I have a general idea due to the forend style, and on the 50 because there was not a long production run. The dates I did obtain came from armscollector.com and I think their source was per George Madis. The need for correct information is great.
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  • p.muerrle
    I've got data on both. If you want contact me and let me know info.
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  • Winchester 1912
    Originally posted by p.muerrle
    I've got data on both. If you want contact me and let me know info.

    Thanks Pauline. I'll get that together and send you an email.
    -Mitch
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  • Bert H.
    Hello All,

    The information that I have access to is in the sole possession of the Cody Firearms Musuem... it is not available for public viewing or use by anyone other than the few dedicated researchers who visit the musuem in person. The records consist of the factory warehouse ledgers, and the Polishing Room Serialization Record Books. There are some additional records buried in the McCracken Research Library vault.

    The reason I have access to this information is because I am a long time member of the Buffalo Bill Historical Society (I have donated a minimum of $500 anually for the past many years), and I am an official Volunteer in the research Department for two weeks each June. It has been during each of my research trips and volunteer work that I have obtained all of the information currently at my disposal. I count Jessica Bennett and Connie Miller (as well as David Kennedy and volunteer John Hawk) as personal friends and associates.

    Now, as to the subject of "articles"... I am in the process of writing, and having published (in the WACA quarterly magazine), a long series of articles discussing a number of different Winchester models. As Kimi mentioned, I have a lot of irons in the fire so to speak, and on top of it all, I still work a 40-50 hour work week (as a Senior Electronic Systems Engineer). My eventual goal is to publish a new Winchester serialization DOM book, but it will take me at least two more years to put together all of the information in a user friendly format. In addtion to that project, I just recently finished co-writing a reference book "Winchester, An Investment Option" with a very dear friend of mine, and I have been steadily working on my book "The Complete History and Statistical Analysis of the Model 1885". I still have at least two full years worth of research and data analysis to complete before I can compile and publish it. Currently, I just completed a detailed caliber survey of the Model 1885 serial numbers 15,800 - 69,999, and I am now going back through those records surveying all of the other statistical numbers (e.g. variation types, barrel sizes, barrel lengths, trigger types, etc.). As you can imagine, it is a ton of work, and as a way of providing some daily relief, I visit this forum several times per day. Fortuantely I read very fast (nearly 900 wpm), and I can type about 60 wpm. More than 90% of my responses on this forum (and one other that I frequent) are done off the top of my head. And for those of you who are undoubtedly wondering, I get by on about 4-5 hours of sleep per day, and more importantly, my lovely wife is very understanding of my other passion in life[8D]

    To sum it all up, much of the information many of you seek will be published, but all in do time. In the meantime... keep asking questions, as I really do need the diversions[:D]
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  • Bert H.
    Oh, and I forgot to mention... Pauline and I had a wonderful phone conversation last Sunday afternoon. I encourage her to take the utmost opportunity to explore all of the information that is at her disposal, and I am looking forward to everything she has to offer.
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  • kimi
    Thanks for the update, Bert...and, try not to sleep so dog gone much! [:D][:D][:D]
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by kimi
    Thanks for the update, Bert...and, try not to sleep so dog gone much! [:D][:D][:D]


    My better half read your response and a very evil chuckle was elicited.
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