12ga SxS AOW Update
I have always wanted a short (pistol size) 12ga side by side shot gun. I know they are pretty much worthless other then for cool factor, but I want one.
One big problem with this is I live in a NON SBS state but we can have AOW. Problem I was told was finding a virgin receiver to build an AOW out of was almost impossible.
Today in a gun store we got on the subject of this and he looked in his Numrich book and found receivers for sale from Stevens 311 and Ithica not sure on the model. I am not able to find those parts online so I can not find out if they are virgin or take offs.
IF they are virgin I am correct in the fact that I can build an AOW from them right? If so what is the best way to go about that? I know I can Form 1 it for $200 or transfer it for $5. If I was to do it as a transfer what kind of dealer would I need to do that, just my normal SOT? If they can then what do they need to do to "make" it an AOW? Is it worth the hassle to try to get it done as a transfer only?
Any help would be great.
One big problem with this is I live in a NON SBS state but we can have AOW. Problem I was told was finding a virgin receiver to build an AOW out of was almost impossible.
Today in a gun store we got on the subject of this and he looked in his Numrich book and found receivers for sale from Stevens 311 and Ithica not sure on the model. I am not able to find those parts online so I can not find out if they are virgin or take offs.
IF they are virgin I am correct in the fact that I can build an AOW from them right? If so what is the best way to go about that? I know I can Form 1 it for $200 or transfer it for $5. If I was to do it as a transfer what kind of dealer would I need to do that, just my normal SOT? If they can then what do they need to do to "make" it an AOW? Is it worth the hassle to try to get it done as a transfer only?
Any help would be great.
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If you want the $5 transfer (and everyone does) then it has to be manufactured and registered as an AOW by a Class II manufacturer. He'll do it on a Form 1 and then it can be transferred to you for $5 by your dealer on an approved From 4. You can do it yourself by filing your own Form 1, but as a non SOT doing a "new build" it will cost you $200 to register it...But the next guy who buys it from you down the road will only pay five bucks and will be eternally grateful to you [;)]. Since the Class II will probably want a fee to do the work you'll have to compare his costs vs. doing the job yourself and paying the $200 tax. If it costs you $200 to have the build done by he Class II then there is no real savings compared to just doing your own registration. Future transfers are five bucks no matter who did the original registration. It is going to have to be air tight that these receivers were never completed as shotguns at any time in their lives, otherwise they come back as SBS and are branded with $200 transfers for the rest of their lives. Years ago there was a company called CTS that produced a fairly large number of firearms based on the Remington 870 and registered them as AOWs. People who bought them paid the $5 transfer tax and were happy. The problem was that the receivers CTS used were taken from standard 870 shotguns so their products were in fact SBS and not Any Other Weapons. The BATF came along, tracked down the buyers and hit them with the additional $195 in taxes, along with reclassifying the guns from AOW to SBS, which was a disaster for some of the buyers in your situation where sawed off are banned but AOWs allowed.
Tread carefully in this area my friend.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mark christian
Tread carefully in this area my friend.
That is EXACTLY why I am asking these kind of questions before I start. I have a pretty good handle on NFA stuff but stepping in a little deeper on this one so looking for extra help.0 -
The 311 was discontinued about 20 years ago and of course Savage owns the Stevens name now. It is possible that Numrich (I still can't call hem Gun Parts Inc.) bought up a lot of unfinished Stevens guns before they folded up and if these 311s were never assembled into shotguns you are in good shape...If Numrich will document it for you. The burden of proof here is going to be entirely on you so have your ducks in a row. 0 -
Let us know if they are virgin recievers that sounds like a fun build. 0 -
A member on another board made another suggestion so I thought I would run it by here.
An AOW is also a gun with a smooth bore and a rifled bore and under 16" (or is it 18") in length. So if I took a standard SxS 12ga and had a rifled sleeve installed in one of the barrels and cut to say 12" then it would be an AOW.
If I took the above gun and later added say 6" smooth bore barrels would this be legal? Would I just need to write a letter to the ATF with a change of description? I know you can do these kind of things with other NFA stuff. I know on say Machineguns you can change uppers say to different calibers with no paperwork change unless it is permanent change. Based on this as long as I keep both sets (dual smooth and smooth/rifled) of barrels would that be legal?0 -
If you have a registered AOW with (say) 12" tubes and you want to switch to (say) 8" tubes then you don't need to do anything as far as notifying the BATFE so long as you retain the 12" tubes that were registered on the original Form 1. If you dispose of the 12" tubes and make the 8" tubes you sole barrel length then the BATFE would have to be notified about the change in barrel length. 0 -
Well it looks like I might be out of luck at a state level unless I can find a virgin receiver.
Here is what my state considers a SBS,
(18) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
My state does not allow SBS and IF I am reading the part I highlighted in red they would consider what I am trying to build a SBS.
Any thoughts?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
Well it looks like I might be out of luck at a state level unless I can find a virgin receiver.
Here is what my state considers a SBS,
(18) "and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
Any thoughts?
My thoughts are that you are now officially dead in the water. Not much room for interpretation in that particular regulation...They thought it out very well when they wrote it.0 -
Yeah that is kinda what I thought.
So now to find the mythical virgin receiver [V]0 -
Could you take an old black powder shotgun, with nipples and caps, and cut it down?? If it isn't classified as a gun to begin with, would it be classified as something you couldn't have if it was cut down?? Would that be something you would be interested in since you can't do a modern one?? 0 -
That is not a bad idea. Not quite the same but close and WAY cheeper.
There are no NFA restrictions on muzzle loaders so it would be legal.0 -
IANAL- but if you have a VIRGIN receiver, it is NOT a shotgun- it is neither fish nor fowl UNTIL it is made into a shotgun- or a rifle, or a pistol. Therefore you do NOT have a firearm "Made from a shotgun" unless it get made with smoothbore barrels and a shoulder stock. You WOULD have an AOW. The Ithaca Auto and Burglar Gun was a SXS shot PISTOL- never had a stock, never was a shotgun (but the price of an original wil make you weep!) DO run this one past ATF Technical branch, but I do not believe you would have a weapon "made from a shotgun", unless the receiver has already been papered as a shotgun. 0
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