Juggernaut-1885 Replica's
Juggernaut,
There are many replica's out there of the 1885 High Wall, 1874 Sharps, and the Remington Rolling Block. The best ones IMHO are the 1885's made by Miroku in Japan for Browning, and Winchester's reproductions. I have a Browning 1885 BPCR in 45-70, and using a load of 32 grains of IMR 4198, and a Missouri Bullets #1 Buffalo 405 grain hard cast bullet, cleanly took a whitetail this year at 227 yards. Accuracy with this rifle is not a problem. I can routinely hit a gallon milk jug at 400 yards, with the Vernier sights that were stock on the rifle.
This rifle will handle any of the loads from Corbon, Garrett or Buffalo Bore...easily.
As for the comments about the 45-70 loads in the 45-90 chamber in the previous post, in reply to Hawk Carses' post... This is a common occurance to shoot the less expensive loads(45-70 in a 45-90), just like a 38 special in a 357 magnum chamber. There is nothing wrong with this, and it is not the firing that does the harm. The reason for the chamber in Hawk Carse's post going south is a lot of shooting with BLACK powder, and/or corrosive primers, and not cleaning like it should have been.
Hope this helps.
Best
EDIT 1:
For the price difference, the Japanese made Browning and Winchesters are a better deal than the Pedersoli's. I had a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Deluxe, and the 1885 BPCR is twice the rifle. Not that the Sharps was not accurate, but the fit and finnish are much better. I also looked at the Uberti 1885's, and there is no comparison. However, unfortunately the Winchester Creedemore, and the Browning BPCR are the only ones that come with Vernier sights in the 1885 High Wall variety.
There are many replica's out there of the 1885 High Wall, 1874 Sharps, and the Remington Rolling Block. The best ones IMHO are the 1885's made by Miroku in Japan for Browning, and Winchester's reproductions. I have a Browning 1885 BPCR in 45-70, and using a load of 32 grains of IMR 4198, and a Missouri Bullets #1 Buffalo 405 grain hard cast bullet, cleanly took a whitetail this year at 227 yards. Accuracy with this rifle is not a problem. I can routinely hit a gallon milk jug at 400 yards, with the Vernier sights that were stock on the rifle.
This rifle will handle any of the loads from Corbon, Garrett or Buffalo Bore...easily.
As for the comments about the 45-70 loads in the 45-90 chamber in the previous post, in reply to Hawk Carses' post... This is a common occurance to shoot the less expensive loads(45-70 in a 45-90), just like a 38 special in a 357 magnum chamber. There is nothing wrong with this, and it is not the firing that does the harm. The reason for the chamber in Hawk Carse's post going south is a lot of shooting with BLACK powder, and/or corrosive primers, and not cleaning like it should have been.
Hope this helps.
Best
EDIT 1:
For the price difference, the Japanese made Browning and Winchesters are a better deal than the Pedersoli's. I had a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Deluxe, and the 1885 BPCR is twice the rifle. Not that the Sharps was not accurate, but the fit and finnish are much better. I also looked at the Uberti 1885's, and there is no comparison. However, unfortunately the Winchester Creedemore, and the Browning BPCR are the only ones that come with Vernier sights in the 1885 High Wall variety.
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Well, I won't carry the discussion of shooting a shorter cased rifle cartridge than the chamber any further, the maker recommends you don't and that is good enough for me. Maybe somebody who does it can describe his experiences and what sort of accuracy he gets.
As to Juggernaut's last question "what about the Pedersoli's" the hotload ammo companies don't list Pedersoli (or Uberti, who makes the actions Pedersoli uses for their Highwalls) as suitable for their so-called +P overloads. Garret does not even list the imports for their least load which is within SAAMI limits. The Italian companies will tell you their guns are proof tested to be able to shoot the SAAMI maximum load at 28,000 CUP. And that is all they will say, after that, you are on your own.
Edit to add:
My current main match gun is a Browning BPCR, but in .40-65; I find a 400 grain bullet a lot easier to get along with than a 500 and it does everything I need done at 500 metres and 600 yards. So the .45-XX debate is kind of academic to me; they all kick more than I want, even with black. I have never fired a grain of nitro in that Browning and it has been ten years since my Winchester saw any.
The current Winchester (Miroku) 1885 lineup is kind of peculiar. Maybe the BPCRs were not selling in large volume, but some of the current variants are just weird.
All my shooting is done under NRA rules which call for real black powder in the black powder calibers. I have read that some isolated venues like The Quigley allow smokeless and good shooting has been done with it there. Certainly you can soup up the .45-70 with smokeless, which is good for hunting but has no advantage in target shooting at any range.
Stick with the Miroku, either Browning or Winchester trademark.
The Rolling Block is a good strong black powder action, but it is not equal to the better falling blocks. The new manufacture Remington Rolling Blocks are not as nicely fit and finished as a Lone Star Rolling Block, either.
The maximum caliber for the serious long range black powder shooter is the .45 x 2 7/8", the so-called .45-110. The 3.25" long .45-120 case is just hard to work with.
Of course a heavily loaded smokeless .45-70 will equal or beat any of them for velocity, accuracy at distance might be a different matter, although, as I said, there have been some good nitro scores at The Q.
What bullets do you plan to shoot? BPCR is all cast, of course, and leaning to heavier and heavier weights, 520 to 540 grains currently.0 -
Very well, I believe that the Winchester 1885 High Wall and Remington Rolling Block both in .45-70 gov would suffice then; although I really prefer an octagon barrel like the Winchester 1885 High Wall as opposed to the round barrel that is on Remington Rolling Block and the longer the barrel the better for long range.
A dilemma however for me is that I am undecided on whether or not to either use a black powder substitute such as 'Hodgdon's Triple Seven' for BPC or smokeless and the main factor is that there seems to be some ambiguity even among some experts as to whether or not the black powder substitute such as Hodgdon's Triple Seven is corrosive or not and I just don't like the idea of using corrosive powder in my firearms and yes I am well aware that it is easy to clean and such?
Anyway the other factor is that supposedly the smokeless .45-70 gov is capable of the same ballistics such as hitting man size or larger targets at 900+ yards, as the BPC .45-70, .45-90, .45-110 and .45-120; is this true, because if so then problem solved, otherwise I will just have to use a BPCR apparently.
Thanks.0 -
Juggernaut,
quote:Very well, I believe that the Winchester 1885 High Wall and Remington Rolling Block both in .45-70 gov would suffice then
Somewhat true, but not totally. The Rolling Block will do what I believe you are looking for, and so will the Sharps replica's, but neither are as strong as the 1885 Browning, or Winchester repro's.
quote:A dilemma however for me is that I am undecided on whether or not to either use a black powder substitute such as 'Hodgdon's Triple Seven' for BPC or smokeless and the main factor is that there seems to be some ambiguity even among some experts as to whether or not the black powder substitute such as Hodgdon's Triple Seven is corrosive or not and I just don't like the idea of using corrosive powder in my firearms and yes I am well aware that it is easy to clean and such?
the Triple Seven is not corrosive...black powder and pyrodex are...so are the percussion caps and musket caps, for those people that used Triple Seven in their front stuffers, and had a side lock. When used in conjunction with the percussion caps or musket caps, Triple Seven is still non corrosive...but the caps are not...so you get people who have tried this combination saying the T7 is corrosive. But why bother with either when IMR 4198 will do just a fine job. Go to Hodgdon's reloading website, and look at the data.
quote:I have a Browning 1885 BPCR in 45-70, and using a load of 32 grains of IMR 4198, and a Missouri Bullets #1 Buffalo 405 grain hard cast bullet, cleanly took a whitetail this year at 227 yards. Accuracy with this rifle is not a problem. I can routinely hit a gallon milk jug at 400 yards, with the Vernier sights that were stock on the rifle.
That load mimmicks the blackpowder original load. It can go much higher than that if need be. However, I have lots of room left on the vernier thats' adjustments are calibrated in MOA...I am not even half way with the sight, and a little over 60% with the powder charge. A lot of the replica ladder sights are graduated in yards, specific to the original 405 grain load...or very close to it. If you have any further questions, feel free to e-mail me.
Best
EDIT 1:
The Browning BPCR rifles are a little more spendy usually, but well worth it. There are a couple on the auction side right now, and if I were you, I would jump all over one of them. Here is one, and the wood is usually fantastic!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=1473358610 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Juggernaut,
quote:Very well, I believe that the Winchester 1885 High Wall and Remington Rolling Block both in .45-70 gov would suffice then
Somewhat true, but not totally. The Rolling Block will do what I believe you are looking for, and so will the Sharps replica's, but neither are as strong as the 1885 Browning, or Winchester repro's.
quote:A dilemma however for me is that I am undecided on whether or not to either use a black powder substitute such as 'Hodgdon's Triple Seven' for BPC or smokeless and the main factor is that there seems to be some ambiguity even among some experts as to whether or not the black powder substitute such as Hodgdon's Triple Seven is corrosive or not and I just don't like the idea of using corrosive powder in my firearms and yes I am well aware that it is easy to clean and such?
the Triple Seven is not corrosive...black powder and pyrodex are...so are the percussion caps and musket caps, for those people that used Triple Seven in their front stuffers, and had a side lock. When used in conjunction with the percussion caps or musket caps, Triple Seven is still non corrosive...but the caps are not...so you get people who have tried this combination saying the T7 is corrosive. But why bother with either when IMR 4198 will do just a fine job. Go to Hodgdon's reloading website, and look at the data.
quote:I have a Browning 1885 BPCR in 45-70, and using a load of 32 grains of IMR 4198, and a Missouri Bullets #1 Buffalo 405 grain hard cast bullet, cleanly took a whitetail this year at 227 yards. Accuracy with this rifle is not a problem. I can routinely hit a gallon milk jug at 400 yards, with the Vernier sights that were stock on the rifle.
That load mimmicks the blackpowder original load. It can go much higher than that if need be. However, I have lots of room left on the vernier thats' adjustments are calibrated in MOA...I am not even half way with the sight, and a little over 60% with the powder charge. A lot of the replica ladder sights are graduated in yards, specific to the original 405 grain load...or very close to it. If you have any further questions, feel free to e-mail me.
Best
EDIT 1:
The Browning BPCR rifles are a little more spendy usually, but well worth it. There are a couple on the auction side right now, and if I were you, I would jump all over one of them. Here is one, and the wood is usually fantastic!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=147335861
What I had in mind was using the new made replica Winchester 1885 High Wall and Remington Rolling Block Rifles both in .45-70 gov smokeless to be able to shoot not only factory .45-70 gov, but also the venerable Buffalo Bore, Corbon and Garrett Cartridges as well and hoped to be able to hit man sized or larger targets at 900+ yards and for hunting at closer ranges similar to what the .45-120 Black Powder Cartridges could do?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
Stick with the Miroku, either Browning or Winchester trademark.
The Rolling Block is a good strong black powder action, but it is not equal to the better falling blocks. The new manufacture Remington Rolling Blocks are not as nicely fit and finished as a Lone Star Rolling Block, either.
The maximum caliber for the serious long range black powder shooter is the .45 x 2 7/8", the so-called .45-110. The 3.25" long .45-120 case is just hard to work with.
Of course a heavily loaded smokeless .45-70 will equal or beat any of them for velocity, accuracy at distance might be a different matter, although, as I said, there have been some good nitro scores at The Q.
What bullets do you plan to shoot? BPCR is all cast, of course, and leaning to heavier and heavier weights, 520 to 540 grains currently.
I will attempt to see just how close I can get in terms of accuracy energy and velocity using smokeless powder at similar 900+ yard distances in comparison with black powder cartridges that are known to do so, such as the .45-90 and .45-110 for example; as I want to try the modern made replica Winchester 1885 High Wall Rifle (wanted to try the modern made Remington Rolling Block as well, but there seems to be some question of it handling the high pressure .45-70 gov cartridges unfortunately) in .45-70 gov smokeless using heavy bullets from Buffalo Bore, Corbon and Garrett Cartridges along with some heavy factory loads as well.0 -
quote:Buffalo Bore, Corbon and Garrett Cartridges along with some heavy factory loads
Let us know how it works out. I am sure the companies will be glad to have a testimonial of their accuracy at 900 yards. Maybe they will sponsor you, at $3 - $4 a pop, I would need it.0 -
Would be nice although I am not the public stage type and the trajectory is at such an arch that I would somewhat doubt that would be very easy to do using smokeless, but like I said 'I will attempt to see just how close I can get' with the smokeless and may just have to use BPC and if so I was kind of partial to the .45-120 BPC, however I would think that others have done this already using smokeless and it would be interesting to hear what the results were... 0 -
Juggernaut,
There is no disputing the laws of physics...increase the amount of force(pressure), on any given mass(bullet), and it will move faster, and or further. Smokeless powder in any action will produce higher pressures, than any black powder. The 45-70 with smokeless will EASILY out run the 45-120 with black powder...what it is dependant on is the barreled actions strength as to how much pressure it will take. The old trapdoors and 1874 Sharps were 25,000 PSIG guns at best. That should be telling you that the 45-120 does not generate more pressure than that. Witht the newer and higher strength steels, the 1874 sharps has added 10,000 PSIG to that, and the Winchester/Browning 1886's are good for about 45K PSIG, While the 1885 is a little more than that, coming close to the Ruger #1 in strength. The trapdoor hasn't got much help, as it's weeknes was part of the design flaws.
If you are doing anything other than BPCR NRA sanctioned matches, then the smokless in the 45-70 is the way to go.
Best0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Juggernaut,
There is no disputing the laws of physics...increase the amount of force(pressure), on any given mass(bullet), and it will move faster, and or further. Smokeless powder in any action will produce higher pressures, than any black powder. The 45-70 with smokeless will EASILY out run the 45-120 with black powder...what it is dependant on is the barreled actions strength as to how much pressure it will take. The old trapdoors and 1874 Sharps were 25,000 PSIG guns at best. That should be telling you that the 45-120 does not generate more pressure than that. Witht the newer and higher strength steels, the 1874 sharps has added 10,000 PSIG to that, and the Winchester/Browning 1886's are good for about 45K PSIG, While the 1885 is a little more than that, coming close to the Ruger #1 in strength. The trapdoor hasn't got much help, as it's weeknes was part of the design flaws. If you are doing anything other than BPCR NRA sanctioned matches, then the smokless in the 45-70 is the way to go.Best
Yes, I would concur however there is also the fact that black powder and black powder substitutes are slow burning compared to its fast burning 'white' cousin which utilizes the longer shell casing much more efficiently than smokeless 'white' powder with the ability to propel it to longer range distances than smokeless powder.
I would like to find which high powered load of smokeless ammunition will take advantage of the .45-70 gov case concerning accuracy, energy, distance and velocity and be able to get as close to 900+ yards as possible like its black powder cartridge cousins the .45-90, .45-110 and .45-120; by using factory loads, Buffalo Bore, Corbon and Garrett Cartridge as well as any others that present themselves.0 -
BTW, thanks for the help and answering questions, much appreciated. 0
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