Question about legality of selling guns, cont'd
quote:scottw182
The guns aren't stolen. By "under the table" I just meant the guns weren't registered to the seller or the buyer, so there is no official record of these guns being in my name, or the name of the person who gave them to me. I only specified that because one of my questions was whether or not they need to be registered in my name.
If there is no paper trail connected to the guns (as you suggest) then how do you know they are NOT stolen (or haven't been previously used in a crime)? Where did the person who transferred them to you get them? Don't answer this, just think about it. If you're in a place that requires gun registration, the answer probably matters, and since you're talking about "under the table" transfer (which is potentially a felony) its seems likely that you are.
Consider that in many jurisdictions, legal face-to-face transfer of firearms between adults with no criminal records is perfectly legal, without background check or other State involvement. There is nothing "under the table" about this, and in fact in these places, you *couldn't* register your ownership of guns even if you wanted to do so, since the State doesn't maintain those sorts of records.
The gun-haters usually call this the "gun show loophole" even though its not a loophole and it has nothing to do with gun shows.
Since the State gov't is supposed to represent the will of the people, and in many States a plurality of adults feel that its really none of the business of the State which residents own guns, many State laws reflect that.
quote:Ok, so the consensus here is that I need to check locally because the laws can differ widely. I don't know why so many still asked where I live, when I need to just check for myself, surely you don't know the laws of every single state and every single city.
The reason people wanted to know where you live is to answer the question you yourself asked. If you would have simply posted that information, you'd probably already have your answer (and maybe some other good advice as well). If you don't want the answer, then why come here and post the question?
As to your second bit, you'd be amazed what the experts on this board know, particularly since the group includes law enforcement, licensed gun dealers, and individuals with decades of experience trading and shooting guns, with members in every State, and many members having lived in multiple States.
Further, to answer your question, nobody needs to know the laws of "every" city, just yours. Most (but not all) municipalities don't have specific ordinances restricting gun ownership any more than their respective State laws do.
quote:Is there an internet resource where you can easily get the laws for your city/state?
In fact there are several, but again, without knowing what kind of guns you have or the jurisdiction, its impossible to point you to the exact right spot.
One excellent place to start is the NRA website here:
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/
quote:
Guess I'll just start calling places and hope I 1) Get somebody helpful, and 2) Get somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. For all I know, they could just tell me wrong information.
Well, if you're as vague in communication with these "places" as you have been on this board, you can't really expect to get correct information. You may or may not have luck with random calls. If you want the right info, you have to speak to the right person.
Before you let your fingers do the walking, consider that in many cases, police officers can be shockingly unfamiliar with the gun laws in their own jurisdictions. Many adopt a reasonably pragmatic attitude where they'll just assume all guns they encounter are illegal and that anyone possessing one is a criminal until proven otherwise. Since they don't deal with buying or selling guns all day, they may not be familiar with all the laws regarding weapons transfer.
Apart from this board, your best source of info is probably going to be a senior member of an established gun club in your area.
Gun store owners can probably give you the information you want too, though whether or not they'll take the time to help you is another matter.
The guns aren't stolen. By "under the table" I just meant the guns weren't registered to the seller or the buyer, so there is no official record of these guns being in my name, or the name of the person who gave them to me. I only specified that because one of my questions was whether or not they need to be registered in my name.
If there is no paper trail connected to the guns (as you suggest) then how do you know they are NOT stolen (or haven't been previously used in a crime)? Where did the person who transferred them to you get them? Don't answer this, just think about it. If you're in a place that requires gun registration, the answer probably matters, and since you're talking about "under the table" transfer (which is potentially a felony) its seems likely that you are.
Consider that in many jurisdictions, legal face-to-face transfer of firearms between adults with no criminal records is perfectly legal, without background check or other State involvement. There is nothing "under the table" about this, and in fact in these places, you *couldn't* register your ownership of guns even if you wanted to do so, since the State doesn't maintain those sorts of records.
The gun-haters usually call this the "gun show loophole" even though its not a loophole and it has nothing to do with gun shows.
Since the State gov't is supposed to represent the will of the people, and in many States a plurality of adults feel that its really none of the business of the State which residents own guns, many State laws reflect that.
quote:Ok, so the consensus here is that I need to check locally because the laws can differ widely. I don't know why so many still asked where I live, when I need to just check for myself, surely you don't know the laws of every single state and every single city.
The reason people wanted to know where you live is to answer the question you yourself asked. If you would have simply posted that information, you'd probably already have your answer (and maybe some other good advice as well). If you don't want the answer, then why come here and post the question?
As to your second bit, you'd be amazed what the experts on this board know, particularly since the group includes law enforcement, licensed gun dealers, and individuals with decades of experience trading and shooting guns, with members in every State, and many members having lived in multiple States.
Further, to answer your question, nobody needs to know the laws of "every" city, just yours. Most (but not all) municipalities don't have specific ordinances restricting gun ownership any more than their respective State laws do.
quote:Is there an internet resource where you can easily get the laws for your city/state?
In fact there are several, but again, without knowing what kind of guns you have or the jurisdiction, its impossible to point you to the exact right spot.
One excellent place to start is the NRA website here:
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/
quote:
Guess I'll just start calling places and hope I 1) Get somebody helpful, and 2) Get somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. For all I know, they could just tell me wrong information.
Well, if you're as vague in communication with these "places" as you have been on this board, you can't really expect to get correct information. You may or may not have luck with random calls. If you want the right info, you have to speak to the right person.
Before you let your fingers do the walking, consider that in many cases, police officers can be shockingly unfamiliar with the gun laws in their own jurisdictions. Many adopt a reasonably pragmatic attitude where they'll just assume all guns they encounter are illegal and that anyone possessing one is a criminal until proven otherwise. Since they don't deal with buying or selling guns all day, they may not be familiar with all the laws regarding weapons transfer.
Apart from this board, your best source of info is probably going to be a senior member of an established gun club in your area.
Gun store owners can probably give you the information you want too, though whether or not they'll take the time to help you is another matter.
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Wow! What an articulate response! Beantown, you've got a real gift.
Neal
PS. Note to Scott: Tell Mayor Bloomberg trying to bait law abiding shooters is a waste of your time.0 -
Beantown hit all of the high points and he is no where near as long winded as I am! I could see this as a sticky covering private party sales. 0 -
That was what I was trying to say in my post. I am just nowhere near as eloquent or have as much knowledge as Bean. Which is why I hang out here as often as possible. Like the quote "the more I learn the less I know" I try to learn as much as possible even though it is somewhat depressing how little I know. 0 -
beantownshootah, I agree with some others that your answer was excellent but I am wondering why the part about the gun having previously been used in a crime was included. Does using a gun in a crime render it contaband or what problem could it cause the person in possession of it? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Herschel
beantownshootah, I agree with some others that your answer was excellent but I am wondering why the part about the gun having previously been used in a crime was included. Does using a gun in a crime render it contaband or what problem could it cause the person in possession of it?
The point is, if you're going to buy guns "under the table" (which is the exact phrase this poster used), then its probably a good idea to have some idea of their provenance.
What's the downside of buying a gun previously used in a crime? Realistically, probably not that much, but it could be seized as evidence, for one thing. If it were stolen, then not only could it be claimed by the rightful owner as stolen property, but mere possession of stolen property is itself a crime.0 -
A definite +1 with Beantown! 0 -
Are you talking about handguns or long guns? In this state, Pa., long guns require no paper work for a sale between individuals. Also there is no registration for long guns. Now, handguns are a different matter entirely. 0 -
Scott182,
your original post:
quote:Hi, I'm new here, and I'm a total gun newbie. I have a couple of guns that were given to me that I want to sell. What are the laws associated with selling firearms? Do I have to have some sort of permit? Does the person I sell to have to have a permit? Do the guns have to be registered (as of right now, they are not registered in my name, the person who gave them to me just bought them from somebody else, "under the table" so to speak) and then gave them to me. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
First and foremost, it depends on the state and city you live in. Most places do NOT require registration. If you went to a gun store and bought a firearm you would fill out a form 4473. That form is pretty much permission to do a background check on you, and that you are stating you have no criminal record that would preclude you from owning a firearm. Again, not a registration form. You can usually find out your local laws on line. However, if you can't then you can go to your local courthouse, possibly library and find the laws necessary.
The Federal standpoint, ATF is that you can transfer face to face, handgun or long gun within a state, without an FFL. You can buy a long gun at a dealers locale in another state than your state of residence and take possesion. You must have a handgun shipped to your state and be received through an FFL if you purchase it out of state. This is the same for a non-ffl purchased long rifle. It must come through your state of residence to be received.
The kicker here is that the ATF has mandated that ANY state laws that provide more restrictive directive, must be followed as well, i.e. New York says all incoming handguns must be sent by an FFL, Chicago-no handguns, long rifles only (unless your job mandates it. That is an example of one state and one city code that are more restrictive than the Federal ruling.0
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