Throat Burnout in WSM's?
I have heard reports of WSM's burning out barrel throats. I know that they are designed to burn faster and hotter but am interested to hear from anyone first hand. Have you had any problems with the WSM calibers? How much longevity is expected before degradation of accuracy?
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AKtanker,
"I have heard reports of WSM's burning out barrel throats."
We've heard the same thing about dozens of cartridges for the last 50 or 60 years. Those maligned are the .220 Swift, .264 Winchester Magnum, 6.5-284, 25-06 and a host of others.
"I know that they are designed to burn faster and hotter..."
Incorrect. They are designed to burn powder more efficiently.
"Have you had any problems with the WSM calibers?"
They are cartridges not calibers. I have had no problem with the WSM cartridges nor has anyone else that I know of who has acted responsibly when shooting one of them. I shoot one specifically for competition and hunt with several others. The competition rifle gets a barrel change every year after about 1100 rounds since I want it to be at peak performance. The hunting rifles will probably never see a new barrel since they don't see the amount of shooting necessary to ruin a throat.
" How much longevity is expected before degradation of accuracy?
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That's impossible to say. There are too many variables that come into play regarding throat wear and so-called 'burn out'. Folks that damage the throat of their rifle usually accomplish this by shooting long strings of rapid fire, incorrect powder selection, high pressure loads and most of all, BAD cleaning habits.
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AKtanker, if you search this forum you'll find much more advice on the WSM and WSSM cartridges, much of it also from nononsense. I haven't done much with the WSMs but have played with a 223 WSSM (Browning A bolt stainless) for a couple years now. Mine shows no evidence of throat erosion (had a gunsmith check it with a bore scope) but did give me fits for awhile as far as reliable accuracy was concerned. It initially gave one MOA accuracy but after 50 rounds or so I got erratic results with a variety of loads. Cleaning carefully with a good copper remover is important as is the choice of the right type of powders. My rifle has a very thin barrel and heats up rapidly so best accuracy is obtained by letting the barrel cool between shots. I got a half inch three shot group last week with Barnes 53 grain TSX. Look for nononsense's advice in earlier posts and follow it. 0 -
AKtanker,
The two worst ways to burn barrels out are high volume shooting, and high volume shooting when the barrel is hot. Any rifle can undergo this phenomena. I've had a 7WSM that I shoot long range with and have had no significant erosion.
First, I don't load it as hot as possible. Loading hot even with lower capacity {edit: loads} cartridges is almost as bad as loading super-large capacity cases. I liken it to a blow-torch. It does it's best cutting when the flame is most intense, i.e. high pressure/heat. Using a larger capacity case with the flame backed down a bit, cut's a little less.
Second, I don't shoot the barrel hot, and especially don't keep shooting it hot. Chemically, molecules tend to move a lot more when they are heated up. So, as a barrel gets hot and continues to shoot, you are removing a lot more metal with the same load as when the barrel is cold. In competitions this is hard to avoid. The best thing you can do to slow this down is to load lighter. If possible, in competition, get your velocity from a longer barrel and slower powder as opposed to hot loads.
Third, breaking the barrel in and then cleaning the barrel right is really huge. Breaking the barrel in decreases mill/machining process marks that build copper. When enough copper gets in a barrel pressures go up. Temps go up, throat erosion occurs. you also need to get the right equipment to clean well. Nowadays, most everyone uses a jag. This is a lot better than the metal on metal situation created with the old slotted patch holders. Using a bore guide keeps the cleaning jag in line with the bore so you don't ding the bottom lands when you enter them. Along that line a crown or muzzle guide does the same. The rod, because you can now, should be a one piece carbon fiber/plastic coated rod. The joints in a rod, especially the military ones, are notorious for scratching up lands. And the lead boss of the patch holder was also notorious for dinging lands as it went in.
Bottom line is WSM's will only wear worse than other calibers if you load 'em hot, shoot them hard, and don't clean 'em right.0 -
Thanks for all the help! Nononsense, You said that you replace the competition rifles barrel every year after shooting around 1100 rounds through it. Is that barrel being damaged because you are shooting it so frequently and when it is hot, or if I shoot a hundred rounds a year for 11 years am I going to be seeing the same loss in performance. Assuming that the weapon is properly broken in and cleaned after use, it seems like a barrel should last a lot longer then 1100 rounds. 0 -
AKtanker,
I replace somewhere between 12 and 15 of my competition rifle barrels each year for a simple reason:
I don't want to have to replace a barrel 1/2 or 3/4 of the way through the next season or the season after that. Mid-season changes are a pain, resulting in a lot of hurried load testing and chronographing. To alleviate the rushing around I just replace them all outright. The takeoff barrels are still good for at least double the round counts but again I don't wait for a barrel to go south before I change it out. I continue to use the takeoff barrels for testing and load development.
I also don't 'run a condition' as the benchrest guys call it. This is the rapid firing of all of your shots in a few seconds when the conditions are what you expect from your sight in shots. I enjoy shooting too much to have it be all over in a few seconds. Besides, I learn more from shooting a variety of conditions as opposed to waiting for just the right set of conditions and shooting all of my shots at once. The winners might win because they run the conditions but I win with a better understanding of the different conditions and the experience of shooting in them.
I have .308 Win. barrels that have 8,000 rounds on them and still shoot with acceptable accuracy. I had a .30-378 Weatherby though that lasted ~500 rounds before I had to take it off. It was a barrel I built just for experimenting with extreme bullets and loads and it served its purpose. Barrels are a disposable commodity or what often gets referred to as 'perishable tooling' in the manufacturing industry. When one reaches the end of its useful life, it gets replaced, it's as simple as that.
I have two rifles with barrels that are older than 11 years, both are classic commercial Mausers from the 20's and 30's.
The last point I wanted to cover which I forgot to make before I locked your other topic about selecting another cartridge, was in regards to why the WSM cartridges were invented.
Two reasons:
The desire to push the boundaries of the PPC/BR case design concept of short-fat cartridges.
The over-reaction to belted magnums and the conjured problems of feeding and magazine work when doing conversions.
The WSM/RSAUM/WSSM cartridges serve a purpose; they stimulate the market on several fronts whether we recognize them or not. If we want to push the limits of cartridge and bullet design, the preliminary designs need to get into the hands of the much larger market where a significant amount of work gets accomplished in a much shorter period of time. The RSAUM cartridges are a better solution than the WSM cartridges and their failure in the marketplace can be laid right at the feet of the idiots in Remington's marketing department.
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Thanks, for all of the help. I have been trying to read as many of the related threads as possible and apologize if you had to repeat yourself for my benefit. I appreciate all of the expert advice and look forward to using the forums in the future. 0 -
AKtanker,
There's no need to apologize. Repetition is good for all of us in lots of ways so it's never a bad thing.
You're always welcome. Stay, read, write comments and ask questions, that's what we're all about. The more folks the merrier!
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Most rifle barrels that people claim are "shot out" end up needing nothing more than a good cleaning to remove the accumulated metal fouling. When I was still gunsmithing I "magically" brought back to life 90% or more of the so called "shot out" barrels by thoroughly cleaning them with a good copper solvent. The average shooter doesn't realize how fast metal fouling can occur and how bad it can effect accuracy. 0
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