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Bert H...HELP! 1894 Winchester

Jim88
Hi Bert. I was told you may be able to help. I have my great grandfathers Winchester rifle. It is a deluxe takedown model 1894 made in 1896. Here are the other details:

26", 28", 30" or 32", etc. barrel (not sure at this writing-need to measure)
Full length magazine
Full length Octagonal barrel
Presentation grade stocks
Case hardened frame
Wood is checkered
Extra Tang sight
30 W.C.F. caliber
Serial # 50212
Brass disc inlet in stock (blank-no writing)

Photos are at this link:(just remove dashes)

http://www.-the-fire-arms-forum-.com/showthread.php?t=67343


Can you help with how rare, maybe value???

Thanks
Jim

Edit: In order for the link to work, copy it into your address bar, the remove the dashes after the www. and before the .com
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Comments

11 comments

Date Votes
  • Spider7115
    I don't know why you posted the link that pain-in-the-butt way but you have a beautiful rifle. I'm sure Bert will be interested in seeing it.
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  • Jim88
    Sorry for the link in that format...But when I posted the link normally, the link turned into a (burp) something on preview. So I guess I am not allowed to post links. Not sure[:(] I will try though to take some dashes out....
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  • Old-Colts
    I'll leave this to Bert for full comments, but you have a very nice looking Deluxe Takedown rifle. The pictures aren't the best, but the receiver doesn't appear to be casehardened; what I think you are seeing is nice blue that has flaked and the bare areas have different shadings of discoloration. However, I could be wrong.

    Interesting that it isn't a pistol grip stock, but the stocks are checkered, not engraved.

    Have you lettered this rifle through the Cody Museum?

    A Model 1894 I owned in the 60800 serial number range lettered as shipped in April, 1899; so I think yours will letter later than 1896.

    Pictures in natural light would be much better.
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  • ruger41
    might not have let you post it because it's a competing forum website?
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  • rsnyder55
    You could always request a letter from the Cody Museum
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  • Jim88
    quote:Originally posted by Old-Colts
    I'll leave this to Bert for full comments, but you have a very nice looking Deluxe Takedown rifle. The pictures aren't the best, but the receiver doesn't appear to be casehardened; what I think you are seeing is nice blue that has flaked and the bare areas have different shadings of discoloration. However, I could be wrong.

    Interesting that it isn't a pistol grip stock, but the stocks are checkered, not engraved.

    Have you lettered this rifle through the Cody Museum?

    A Model 1894 I owned in the 60800 serial number range lettered as shipped in April, 1899; so I think yours will letter later than 1896.

    Pictures in natural light would be much better.


    Well I asked another collector and even used the Collector Winchester site and both said it dated 1896. I do not think the bluing flaked off because the barrel and magazine tube still have their blue.

    But I will be working on getting more info. in person and from Cody...
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  • Bert H.
    Hello Jim,

    Your Fancy Take Down Sporting Rifle was manufactured in the latter part of the year 1898 (serial 53941 was the last one made in that year). As such, it is a true "Antique"

    The barrel is 26-inches long (standard length for the Sporting Rifle).

    The stocks appears to be 3X american black walnut, and the butt stock configuration is extremely rare for a "Fancy" Sporting Rifle (the vast number of them were made with a pistol grip).

    There were only (155) Model 1894 Rifles that were factory case color hardened, and I have the serial number listing for each of them... your serial number is not one of them. Based on what I see in the pictures you posted on the other forum, the receiver frame is not case color finished... instead, it was originally blued and it has turned to a mottled patina. The lever was originally case color finished, and I can still see some of the original colors.

    Without the benefit of a Cody Firearms Musuem factory letter (which I highly recommend that you get one), I have my doubts about the brass oval presentation plate. If it were factory installed, it should have something engraved on it.

    Without the benefit of seeing some higher quality photos (or having the rifle in my hands), it is my belief that it is worth at least $5500, and possibly more to the right collector.

    Who was it that recommended me to you (just curious)?

    Lastly, there was quite a bit of mis-information posted by the fellows who replied to your topic string on that other forum. You might recommend to them that they come here to this forum and read up a bit.
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  • Jim88
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    Hello Jim,

    Your Fancy Take Down Sporting Rifle was manufactured in the latter part of the year 1898 (serial 53941 was the last one made in that year). As such, it is a true "Antique"

    The barrel is 26-inches long (standard length for the Sporting Rifle).

    The stocks appears to be 3X american black walnut, and the butt stock configuration is extremely rare for a "Fancy" Sporting Rifle (the vast number of them were made with a pistol grip).

    There were only (155) Model 1894 Rifles that were factory case color hardened, and I have the serial number listing for each of them... your serial number is not one of them. Based on what I see in the pictures you posted on the other forum, the receiver frame is not case color finished... instead, it was originally blued and it has turned to a mottled patina. The lever was originally case color finished, and I can still see some of the original colors.

    Without the benefit of a Cody Firearms Musuem factory letter (which I highly recommend that you get one), I have my doubts about the brass oval presentation plate. If it were factory installed, it should have something engraved on it.

    Without the benefit of seeing some higher quality photos (or having the rifle in my hands), it is my belief that it is worth at least $5500, and possibly more to the right collector.

    Who was it that recommended me to you (just curious)?

    Lastly, there was quite a bit of mis-information posted by the fellows who replied to your topic string on that other forum. You might recommend to them that they come here to this forum and read up a bit.


    Hi Bert,

    Thank you for your time and informative information. A person by the ID "TOOHSOTKIL" recommended you. I am working on getting a letter from CODY. Hopefully they can divulge who the rifle was built for and where it was shipped too as well as the configuration.

    Thanks again! [:)]
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by Jim88
    Hi Bert,

    Thank you for your time and informative information. A person by the ID "TOOHSOTKIL" recommended you. I am working on getting a letter from CODY. Hopefully they can divulge who the rifle was built for and where it was shipped too as well as the configuration.

    Thanks again! [:)]


    You are quite welcome.

    The records at Cody will not have most of the information you are seeking... that is one of the many things that you were incorrectly told by the fellows on the other forum. Please use the link to the CFM which appears directly after my signature line name... it tells you exactly what information is available.
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  • Jim88
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by Jim88
    Hi Bert,

    Thank you for your time and informative information. A person by the ID "TOOHSOTKIL" recommended you. I am working on getting a letter from CODY. Hopefully they can divulge who the rifle was built for and where it was shipped too as well as the configuration.

    Thanks again! [:)]


    You are quite welcome.

    The records at Cody will not have most of the information you are seeking... that is one of the many things that you were incorrectly told by the fellows on the other forum. Please use the link to the CFM which appears directly after my signature line name... it tells you exactly what information is available.

    Thanks again Bert. I found another interesting bit of info. searching for Winchester information. It said:

    "
    A recent question to me was related to the percentage of case hardened Winchester Model 1873s. Although no one has done a solid survey, I referenced Jim Gordon's book on the 1873, Winchester's New Model of 1873, A Tribute, and according to him, "Case hardening was a relatively common feature. A substantial majority of the Model 1873s with deluxe wood or other special features were shipped with case hardened receivers." (pg. 199)"
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  • Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by Jim88
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by Jim88
    Hi Bert,

    Thank you for your time and informative information. A person by the ID "TOOHSOTKIL" recommended you. I am working on getting a letter from CODY. Hopefully they can divulge who the rifle was built for and where it was shipped too as well as the configuration.

    Thanks again! [:)]



    You are quite welcome.

    The records at Cody will not have most of the information you are seeking... that is one of the many things that you were incorrectly told by the fellows on the other forum. Please use the link to the CFM which appears directly after my signature line name... it tells you exactly what information is available.

    Thanks again Bert. I found another interesting bit of info. searching for Winchester information. It said:

    "
    A recent question to me was related to the percentage of case hardened Winchester Model 1873s. Although no one has done a solid survey, I referenced Jim Gordon's book on the 1873, Winchester's New Model of 1873, A Tribute, and according to him, "Case hardening was a relatively common feature. A substantial majority of the Model 1873s with deluxe wood or other special features were shipped with case hardened receivers." (pg. 199)"


    Jim,

    The Models 1873, 1876, 1885, 1886, and 1887 were predominantly case color finished, especially the deluxe (fancy) Rifles. That said, there is no parallel between them and the Models 1892 and 1894. The Models 1892 and 1894 were very difficult to case harden due to thier inheirently thinner frame walls, which tended to warp during the heating and quench process. Additionally, the Models 1892 and 1894 came along only a small number of years before Winchester ceased case color finishing all of the models in production as of August 1901. After that time, all models were blued.
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